Katta Spiel (Part 2) on neurodivergence & different ways of being and knowing

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life. I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is a podcast series where academics and others share their stories, provide ideas, and provoke discussions about what we can do individually and collectively to change academic life for the better. Welcome to part two of my conversation with Dr. Katta Spiel. Katta is an assistant professor at TU Wien. And, also a recent recipient of an ERC starting grant, which in the European context is a very prestigious grant. And Katta's also a very good colleague of mine for a number of years. In part, one of my conversation with Katta. They talk about their experiences around career uncertainty as a postdoc before they got this current tenure track position. And other issues like dealing with rejection of proposals coming out as queer dealing with chronic health issues. And we end up there talking about normative approaches to technologies and bodies. We go on here in part two where Katta talks about their personal journey with being diagnosed with ADHD, being neurodivergent. And what it's like negotiating living in a world that doesn't really make space for different ways of knowing and different ways of being and for different types of bodies. And also talking about, being an activist and feeling that sense of injustice around many of these issues and trying to make that difference. And ending with an encouragement for us all to be curious about the different ways of being and knowing. So. enjoy part two of this conversation. It brings up this notion of what we assume is normative, approaches to all sorts of things, whether it's Academia, gender filling in on forms, goals for fitness trackers and so on. Yeah. And you also talk about being neurodivergent. Yes. And I, I'm sitting here watching Katta, do cross stitching as, as we're speaking.

Katta: 00:02:27

Yeah. In this case, yeah, um, now, I've been doing that recently again, um, because I felt it was more portable than knitting. Um, so, this is something that accompanies me actually my entire, like, school career and life. When I was, uh, in primary school, in second grade, I was apparently so hard to handle that they gave me books to read and were like, this makes no sense how you retain anything else. But like, apparently it went better when I read books in class. Then I was like more attentive. Um, and that like was The case for the longest time that I was just reading books in class and then

Geri: 00:03:09

while listening to the teacher Yeah, whatever concept they were trying to explain.

Katta: 00:03:13

Yeah, and then

Geri: 00:03:15

so again the normative account of what attention is

Katta: 00:03:18

And then during my whole studies I was knitting Basically, once I dare to. Um, and, uh, and I didn't even know I was neurodivergent at that point. I just did these things. And now I just know what the reason for that is, but I still do these things. Maybe sometimes I allow them more readily to me. Because, like, I guess I would try and, and I, I would try and get through, like, student meetings without doing that. But now I just keep telling my students, like, I will pay more attention and be more concise and more helpful for you if you let me do a thing next to it. Yeah. Like I will make more sense to you. We will have a better relationship and it will just be a better interactive experience for you. Mm-Hmm. And it's actually surprising me even like how well that is accepted. I mean, I also openly talk about it. I think it's really important to kind of like for students to have that, I don't wanna say role model, but like you are kind of put in that position, so you have to. Just like, whether you want or not, you just have to kind of like, relate to that. And, it does, there is a special flex in being like, I have a learning disability.

Geri: 00:04:29

So, how do you characterize your neurodivergence? Like, learning disability?

Katta: 00:04:34

No, but that's how it's Characterized from the outside, right? Mm-Hmm. And then I play with that. Mm-Hmm. But I see it as a difference. It's just a difference of processing, of engaging with like, I mean, dopamine levels are, as far as I understood, dopamine levels are, uh, lower, for example. And there are like neurological differences, but I don't wanna like, you know, value that one way or the other. I do identify as disabled due to like a bunch of things. Um, and that being one of them. But that's more in terms of like how I encounter a world that expects me to be different than how I am. And that's also how I identify disability ultimately. So, yeah. And with that, yeah. I do, like, with the learning disabled, that's just a flex, right? Because like, that, that kind of is supposed to show. the irony behind defining it as such, because I'm like, in this classic academic context, I seem to be successful enough to kind of like reach a stage where this becomes ironic. I mean, it's helpful with like, I raise a child and like, um, when I meet other parents and they keep on being like, Oh yeah, we have like, we're discussing ADHD and whatever. And, and they don't necessarily know that I have ADHD myself. I can come out and be like, yeah, well, I have an ADHD too, and it's fine, and I work at a university, and they're like, you can see how they just relax, like, immediately, of like, oh god, my child can have academic success and all that, and then I try to explain, you know, some strategies that might help, either from personal experience or from literature, and like, ultimately, just working with the child, I guess, um, and how they can learn, and usually, that, if you manage to have That as a source of dopamine, then like learning. Then you call them.

Geri: 00:06:33

And you do?

Katta: 00:06:34

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, studying again.

Geri: 00:06:41

Studying again. Yeah. Yeah.. So what, what are some of the strategies that have worked for you? You've already talked about doing something with your hands while you're talking or listening, you know, what other ways have you been able to work with, who you are and your particular ways of engaging in the world to achieve this level of success

Katta: 00:07:08

If only I knew. No, it's not quite as like I do some things that I guess. I mean, I know of a lot of strategies of how you plan yourself because I tried a lot and they have usually not stuck and I have to change them all the time and how I structure my life. But that means I know a lot of ways of structuring my life, which is useful to students, I guess, because, like, I can make a whole range of different offers. I'm like, You could try this. It doesn't work. You could try this. I mean, I I've been through a lot. And it keeps on changing. I've recently tried now with another thing and it's like, you know, that's fine. I have accepted that about myself, that nothing will work and, uh, only, uh, or only if I do everything, so to speak. Like, at some, at different points, different things will work. That is maybe the more positive way to phrase that. But also, um, yeah, it's, uh, I have trouble like, you know, making choices between roughly equally important things and that's really hard because then, then deadlines are motivators, of course, like, cause the urgency that something takes does factor in, but sometimes it has to be really, really urgent to, to kind of, like, kick in. Um, and you don't want to have that and you don't want to sit around either. But like sometimes there's paralysis of like, what do I do now? Because like emails, are they important? Or is like this other thing important that will put me in a better position in the long term? Or like, how do I do this? How do I do that? Is this important now? Actually, you should be continuously doing this so that, you know, for example, I do actually try and update my CV once a month. So that I don't have to do it all at once because I know that would even be worse then. But you know, some months I just like move it to the next month as a task because like it doesn't feel that much, like, that relevant. But, um, still. Sometimes it's just difficult and then I roll a die. And so I have different ways of rolling a die. I have physical die. I have a die app on my watch. I have a die app on my phone. A serious, a serious rolling a die. I have a Python script on my computer that helps me. Yeah, I'm not into gambling, but for that I do have a lot of die. And then I have like intricate systems of like what specific numbers mean. And like I still haven't figured out, like cause I use six sided die for the connoisseur. But like sometimes I did not know all this! Yeah, I see. Um, hiding it well. No. Um, but like I have a six sided die and um, I uh, I still haven't figured out well how to deal with it when I have five options. But I still feel that is the best die. 12 sided die might be better, but like for now, 6 sided die. I've been, been holding on to that for like at least 15 years. So that is the most stable thing that I've done. Just like rolling die all the time.

Geri: 00:10:06

I mean, across all that you've talked about, would it be fair to say this has been a journey of self acceptance? Getting to know yourself,

Katta: 00:10:21

I mean, I got diagnosed late ish, like, um, I think I was 30 or so with ADHD, with ADHD. Yeah. Um, or a bit earlier, but like around that time and, um. And to an extent, yeah, self acceptance, but like, it wasn't even about self acceptance, but more like accepting, accepting that the world isn't made differently. Like, cause I have, there's this question when you get diagnosed or whether you have an, an exaggerated need for justice. First of all, I don't think you can have an exaggerated need for justice because either you have a need for justice or you don't, but like, it's not, that is, that is kind of black and white, right? Like, you know, what is justice then like more nuanced, but like, whether you are for it or not, it's not necessarily like, what is that even? Like, anyway, um, but, uh, Besides that, completely weird question, um, it was interesting, um, Because that, that, that is also like sometimes where drive comes like of like, oh, this isn't fair towards me and then like, or towards someone else or whatever. And I mean, that's a driver for change and a lot of like source for a bunch of activism. But, um, but kind of like accepting that I have to find a way of dealing with that. Yeah. Um, because like, it will be even more unfair if I keep on trying to change something that I cannot or like figuring out like. Or trying to change my way of like engaging with that to a point where, you know, and I had some, some bad strategies apparently developed over the years as well, like, um, which are just not necessarily super helpful then for me or anyone else. And we're, and so what the diagnosis brought was kind of like going from reacting to acting more. Um, like I kept on saying. back then, um, that to an extent, uh, medication allowed me to figure out how I could be the person that I wanted to be. And not just like, you know, trying to survive in some kind of state. Um, and that's kind of a big thing, I guess.

Geri: 00:12:42

Cause you did talk about being quite reflective before in terms of strategies and what's going on and What's a priority now? Very deliberately thinking through these things in a way that maybe many of us don't.

Katta: 00:12:58

Well, because like Because we stay reactive. Oh no, I was like, because I have to, right? Yeah. Because it's not going to be happening implicitly either.

Geri: 00:13:10

I don't know whether this is the right way to ask the question, but then What strengths has this given you or highlighted for you

Katta: 00:13:20

Well, to an extent, the thing of like, you know, staying curious. Like, I'm definitely not necessarily what you would call a specialist in like only one area. I'm like more of a generalist. I'm not super generalist, So I think I'm more, I have the advantage of drawing on more things, like in keeping by necessity, um, so to speak, uh, more threads. Uh, in parallel, and so I sometimes see connections that are not that available to others, at least it seems, but also like others have access to connections that I don't necessarily have and, and I'm very appreciative of them sharing them as well. Like, this is not, I'm not trying to say like, you know, um, that this is only a me thing. It's, it's very much like, happening in other cases as well. Uh, and, um, besides that, uh, I do see I mean, ultimately, um, it's just like I had to make this work for me, but also like ultimately everybody has to, I mean, to some extent it's easier or like it's, I guess it's easier or not as easy for others, but I actually don't have any insight into that as well. So I don't know necessarily how to talk about this without being too presumptuous. Um, Because, like, people have their own struggles and, um, and then I have a lot of students who are just neurodivergent and so we do share the same kind of, like, insights, but, um, but even with those who at least do not identify as neurodivergent, I feel like there is, like, you know, collaboration at some point and, like, they, um, I mean, that might just be the group that has been kind of, like, Amalgamizing around me. But like, yeah, I don't know. I don't want to be presumptuous and I feel like everybody has to work around getting this thing to work. And I, um, I maybe had to do it more explicitly than others. Sometimes it feels certainly that way. Or I might just like have no filter and talk about it all the time or what have you.

Geri: 00:15:40

So you don't operate in a vacuum, of course, you know, you're part of this group. I remember. sitting at my table in my office where you said, Oh, by the way, I'm, you know, I'm queer or whatever. And, and also talking about when you were diagnosed with ADHD, what did I do? What did we do that was good and supportive for you in that position? And what could we have done? What could I have done that could have been? better or more supportive.

Katta: 00:16:10

You took a whole lot of time until you learned my pronouns.

Geri: 00:16:13

Well, and I can't believe I misgendered you here. I thought I was doing really well. And I, I remember saying to you, you know, like I've had 60 years of, Conditioning, for a particular way of speaking and it's taking a while, but

Katta: 00:16:28

You can decide whether you leave that in, but there was this moment where you were at some retreat in Canada that was led by a non binary person and you came back and basically tried to explain how being non binary is to me and I was like, wow. I felt a little bit like, you know, I prepared you for this, let's say it that way. That was a moment. But like, see, that I can say these things, and like, I mean, you can decide whether you leave it in or not, but um, I can say these things, that is a, like, I feel like you just like, you didn't have to understand things to make them work. And so, for example, What I really appreciated, I had this nervous breakdown at one point before I was diagnosed, right, when I was sitting in your office and was basically like, I can't do this anymore, I am doing a PhD, I only have one thing to do, I don't know what is wrong with me, but like, I cannot, it's, it's breaking me, quite literally, like it was really bad, and I think I cried even, like I had a full on mental breakdown. And you were just like, okay, I have this other job for you. Like you, I guess you didn't understand because like, I don't know, maybe you did. Did you understand before? I don't, I don't know. I'm now questioning everything. Yeah, exactly. Like, right, like I didn't know what was up. Um, I was just like, Oh God, I need another job. At least the second thing to do. And, cause I also did that all the time. Like, even during my studies, either I studied two things or I was in city council as well or what have you. And. It was just, yeah, and you just gave me another job and then I was like happier and later I got diagnosed, but, um, but like these things of just accepting people without having the need to fully, like, understand that and make sense of it for yourself and like just being like, okay, this is what a person needs and I don't need to, like, how can I work towards that? I think that is great in terms of an environment. I just also needed to say something that you didn't do well, because otherwise it would seem like I suck up to you. And

Geri: 00:18:23

I demonstrated it very clearly earlier in the conversation. For people who are in research groups who may be leading groups or whatever, do you have any particular advice for them about how they might best support people who are starting to recognize Whether it's neurodivergence or, um, gender diversity issues.

Katta: 00:18:51

Well, just like, yeah, doing that. Like, not trying to figure out what it means for them actually beforehand, but like, rather being in conversation and like, yeah. Um, like, um, taking, taking them seriously when they say these things and not being dismissive about it. Um, yeah.

Geri: 00:19:15

Because they are life experiences, like, you've dealt with such a range of things that you've just talked about, I don't know, not, certainly not glibly, but you've just talked about as matter of factly, rather, is probably a better word, that I have no experience of. And it sounds overwhelming to have gone through all that, and in awe of. All that you've been all that you've done and achieved and also more particularly, I think the contributions of what you've given back because in the middle of all of the work that you've done to, to get to the awards and the achievements and the grants that you've got the huge service. You know, you talked about feeling like something's not fair, being a driver for change. You've been really active in that You do do a lot of peer support and, also activism. You talked about writing an article, like being upset about, the way gender is represented in papers and writing an article about how we should talk or co authoring an article about how we should talk about gender.

Katta: 00:20:24

That sounds almost prescriptive. So I didn't mean it prescriptive, but like, yeah. Like, the main message of that article is that people should think about, like, how, what they want to know about gender, why they want to know it, and like, which groups, what is the group conceptualization of gender. And then we make an offer that will, like, you know, be useful for a bunch of, like, default cases, but like, my main thing was always, like, you need to think about this. Because also the language keeps on changing and, um, the kind of, like, good practices around that. Yeah.

Geri: 00:21:00

So it's more of an invitation to people to really be much more thoughtful and reflective.

Katta: 00:21:04

Yeah, I guess.

Geri: 00:21:06

And you also mentioned that this was written with the authors whose initial paper

Katta: 00:21:10

you Yeah, with some of them. Yeah. Yeah, um, Daniela Lottridge and Oliver Haimson were the co authors on that one. Um, and they are two of the original authors. And it was just a paper where they kind of, it's a very good paper actually. I mean they show how, um, how different groups conceptualize gender differently. And so with the same way of asking gender, in that case a free text form field, they got wildly different responses um, between fantasy football players. Which is a thing that men do in the US like cis men. It's apparently very male coded. I have no idea how that works. I only from that paper, I know that it even exists. But, uh, and Tumblr users who are notoriously queer. Um, and so it was just like, you know, in the one, in the first case, they got a lot of like, but I'm a man, you can see that, like, why are you even asking me that way? And like, why is there a free text, or whatever, silly answers. And then the other one, there was like, you know, nuance kind of like ways of describing your gender and getting really down to like a very like descriptive way and even thank yous and all that. Um, or like, you know, just the gender. Um, but you had that kind of like palpable difference between kind of being thankful and, and for the opportunity to self express gender and the other one of like, why do you make me think that is a bit mean as an interpretation on my end, but like sometimes it feels like that. Anyway, um, and that was really cool, like how they showed that you have to have nuance about these groups and, um, and who you ask with, uh, and who you are asking about gender. Um, and then. They come to, they came to the conclusion that, um, you should have like female, male, or men, uh, woman, man, and other. And I was like, why do you keep literally othering us? Like, that's not necessarily a great choice of words, uh, I feel. And like, it got me, it was a bit mad, cause like I, I like these people and I was like, I expected better from you, I thought you had more understanding on that. That was, I think, literally something I said and they do. And um, and then I really like that, um, that revised, uh, recommendation. First of all, it does get a lot of attention. That was not what I expected because it's just an interactions article that doesn't go fully through peer review or anything, but, um. But, uh, just that it also we have made that part of like the article that you have that continuous interaction, um, with things, which is maybe something that I should say in terms of like, because I have the feeling that a lot of people within our community. So how do I phrase that? So I've also been publicly attacked or semi publicly for being like, you know, for being discriminatory towards white men. Um, which, uh, which I'm saying in this tone because that is not how discrimination works. But, um, Anyway, uh, I've been attacked for that publicly and I also sometimes encounter people who are like, Well, of everything that I heard of you, it's surprising that you're such a nice person. Which I'm like, first of all, I'm not nice. But also, like, I'm not sure what they heard. Because like, it always comes up, I was like afraid of meeting you. And I'm like, why though? Because like, I'm not sure. But it seems kind of like, there seems to be an image around. That, you know, where I'm just overly critical about things. And I do express critique pretty bluntly and pretty harshly. That's fair. But it's always towards the thing, right? Like, that doesn't mean that I'm not willing to talk. That doesn't even mean that I mean that I'm right. But I do feel these things very strongly. And so I do kind of like put them out there very strongly in the ways that I, you know, kind of like engage with them. But that doesn't mean that those are fixed or like set in stone either. And like sometimes I feel it doesn't come across that there is more flexibility attached to that. And I am not sure how to fix that or whether it needs fixing. But yeah, I think this article particularly is a good example of what can happen when you, when you engage with critique that was brought upon very bluntly, um, in a, in a productive way that I think was then beneficial to all of us ultimately.

Geri: 00:25:42

So I I previously hadn't I, hadn't ever thought about other as othering. For me, it was good gesture about non, like recognizing that there are more than two genders. So I guess it's a learning journey for all of us as well. Yeah, that's fine. I sort of also feel like a lot of this is changing as we go along and as we're all learning and norms are changing and cultural differences.

Katta: 00:26:10

There are articles that I wrote where I describe autism in ways that make me feel ashamed about myself. Yeah. And now it is. And like, this is fine. I do, like, it's not fine. It's not fine, um, in that regard, but like, I also look at that and I'm like, Okay, if I wouldn't have the need or kind of like the feeling that I would have done better since then. Like. What would it mean if I wouldn't be ashamed of some of the things that I did earlier because that would mean that I've never developed either and I haven't learned. Yeah, and so I'm looking forward to be ashamed about this interview.

Geri: 00:26:45

Yeah well, and I think that's a really important point for all of us. You know, like, we're human and we're on a learning journey together. And how do we Make space for all sorts of people and ways and working out how to practically do that how to talk about it

Katta: 00:27:07

But like in the words of Hanne De Jaegher, just like letting them be as good. Mmm. Yeah It's also how they can do their best work I feel no Yeah, like just experiencing that with some of my students who have made who like appreciate and, just letting people be is, I think, a good way of allowing them to, um, to do their best work and kind of engage with, with like the knowing part of it all. Because like, the thing is, like, I talk about this activism and I talk about all these things, but ultimately to me, that is also about kind of the. fancier said, like epistemic plurality of like the different ways of knowing because like these different bodies have just like different ways of engaging with the world. And if we wouldn't have that space for these different bodies, we would lose out on so many perspectives and within like, you know, within more classical terms, you could describe that as triangulation and like just like making sure you have these different insights and like these different ways of engaging. And that ultimately makes for better research and for better science. And that is like my driver there as well. Like, it's not just like, you know, Oh, justice is great. Justice is great, I guess. But like, also, um, it's just, this is the job that we're doing. Oops.

Geri: 00:28:26

So that knock at the door was for, your next meeting. So in, in looking at wrapping up, um, I don't know, I feel like you have so much to talk about and so much to share and your openness about who you are, your generosity and sharing that, The fact that you are straight and direct and that you challenge us helps us all to be better and helps us all to be in different ways as well. And I think that there are probably 10 million other things that I will want to have asked you. But what are the things that you would like to say just in wrapping up?

Katta: 00:29:11

I don't know. Like, I know, um, like, I feel, I said, like, I didn't go into this, like, with a particular agenda of, like, sharing this or that. I think it's, um, I think if there's anything, then it's kind of like, you know, um, that, that people shouldn't be afraid about. Figuring out who they are, because like, that is actually a nice thing to, to kind of like, do, no? Mmm. Like, also, um, Also like, recognizing when that might differ. Uh, no, not even that. Like, when that, I was just thinking, like, recognizing when that differs, because that was one of the motivators, like, after my diagnosis. So then, kind of like, two things. But no. Maybe also just be curious about who these other people are, to an extent, right? Like,

Geri: 00:30:05

Respectful curiosity.

Katta: 00:30:07

Respectful. Like, um, because there are kind of like questions that are invasive. But, oh, I wanted to, previously I wanted to add, like, there are a bunch of people who make experiences that I have absolutely no idea how that is. Um. For example, like, I am hearing, so I don't have any kind of insight into how a deaf lived experience is, but also, I have never been pregnant, and I will never be pregnant, so, like, I don't know how that is, and that seems like a huge thing, I'm like, you know, kind of like, you know, other people growing, like, a life in their own body, that must be hard, like, seems, seems like a big thing, um, and, like, And, and I'm bringing this example in particular because that is so clearly something that only specific people experience and that we all have kind of a blasé understanding about it as a difference. And that is kind of like how I wish that we would engage with like how people are different. Being a bit curious, being supportive, but also like just like acknowledging that that is the case and that's it.

Geri: 00:31:07

I don't know if we have time just for a quick comment. One of the things that. I feel is a tension is the thing of the work that you've often talked about needing to do to educate people and, our response, people's responsibility to be curious, respectfully curious and educating themselves.

Katta: 00:31:29

Yeah, but I mean, if you have a culture at your lab. Where you talk about your needs, right? And where you accept those needs. And where people feel free to kind of like say, I don't know, actually. Like, um, I mean we have people here at the institute, which is great, who have like the sign at their door, who are like, if this door is closed then slack us if you need anything but don't just barge in. Because they need that space, but they also feel comfortable just saying that. And I feel like it doesn't always have to be asking. Um, it can just be accepting and that letting be. And, um. But if you have a culture where people can have the freedom to reflect on what they need and then actually ask for it, or kind of like, you know, set the parameters so that they get that, that is great. How to kind of like, you know, actually facilitate that and like how that makes it work, you are much more the expert on that. I'm just trying to emulate that. Um, ultimately, yeah, just, um, yeah, showing an interest. Like it doesn't, like, at least the thing is like if you do it strategically, so to speak, I don't feel it makes sense and then it, the whole purpose is gone again. Mm. Because I had that once, um, I had a colleague who kept on asking me questions about things that I had the feeling that I, they had an answer and they just wanted me to get there myself. And, and I totally get where that comes from. And that is good advice that you ask people to kind of like come to their own solutions, but you also need to be prepared that those might be different from your own. And they weren't necessarily always. And so. So, in that regard, like, that's kind of like, you know, that's what I mean with like, don't be too strategic about it. It needs to come from a place where you kind of like, you know, just want to do that. Um, where you are then kind of like with this example, when you want to know about these other answers that are out there.

Geri: 00:33:28

So a lovely invitation to end on for people. I don't know, because we're all different in different ways. Yeah. And some, you know, there's some that maybe fit more of a normatively oriented model than bodies and ways of being, but whatever that might mean, is there anything normative?

Katta: 00:33:47

And again, like they probably, probably not, right. But like in terms of normative, but like, that doesn't mean they had it easy. That means sometimes they had like, um, Like privileges are difficult to kind of understand, but because like we're not actively, or we're not necessarily taught to actively reflect on them, or sometimes it's just like something we notice. Like car drivers don't notice the entire infrastructure that is up for them that we chose over public transit. I mean, not here, but like, you know, there, there's just access provided in some ways and then you often don't think about it. To come back to that previous thing and then you don't have to think about it because it's just there and then that friction of not being afforded it is sometimes more palpable. And, and, you know, a lot of people, um, might not experience specific kinds of access frictions, but that doesn't mean that they experience none or that, you know, um, their, their struggles aren't relevant as struggles. So I would sometimes. Like to, um, kind of like have, like I would like to see a bit more solidarity sometimes. So for example, with cis women, I sometimes have the feeling that they, um, that they limit the term of their womanhood, but also like the term of their solidarity in ways that are unhelpful to everyone and then they just reproduce patterns of power that are harmful ultimately to them as well. Or, um. Or that sometimes we kind of like try to override, um, others experiences with our own.

Geri: 00:35:29

Lots of food for thought. Thank you very much, Katta. Glad we finally did get to sit down and chat.

Katta: 00:35:36

And now you know about the die.

Geri: 00:35:37

And now I know about the die. And the six sided die, that I didn't know that. Great. Thank you. And that's the end of my conversation with Katta. So much food for thought there. And what I find really amazing is I've worked with Katta for years and. I guess we talked here in a way that we don't often talk day to day and it reminds me. That it's worth taking time to sit down and chat with colleagues and getting to know them in a different way beyond the day-to-day conversations that we might normally have. And I love Katta's call out to us just to allow people space, to be. And embracing the fact that there are very different ways of being and knowing, And accepting that. And that doesn't just mean about the bigger labeled ways in the, in the neuro divergent ways that, gender specific ways that Katta has talked about Katta also was very generous in pointing to ways that. We're all different and have different experiences that we often don't think about. So I leave that with us as for myself as well. As a prompt. Just to be more reflective about the ways in which we're all different. And being curious about that in a respectful, way, and in a way that's about the curiosity, aiming to allow the space for people to be themselves. And as Katta said, where they can do their best work. You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related links for this podcast on www. changingacademiclife. com. You can also subscribe to Changing Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify and Google Podcasts. And you can follow ChangeAcadLife on Twitter. And I'm really hoping that we can widen the conversation about how we can do academia differently. And you can contribute to this by rating the podcast and also giving feedback. And if something connected with you, please consider sharing this podcast with your colleagues. Together, we can make change happen.