Oana and Matt (Part 2) on mental health, teaching path and reflective practice (CAL119 S6E13)

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life. I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is a podcast series where academics and others share their stories, provide ideas, and provoke discussions about what we can do individually and collectively to change academic life for the better. Welcome to part two of my conversation with Oana Ondrei and Matthew Barr from Glasgow University. In part one, we heard about what good leadership with care really looks like, recognizing that everyone is human and creating a sense of belonging through everyday practices. In part two here, we pick up on the being human theme and the question of mental health. Oana talks about how she dealt with her own burnout and Taekwondo figures in this. And Matt shares his experiences dealing with his long term depression. We then shift to exploring their learning, teaching and scholarship career path. How they got into this path, and how they go about navigating criteria for promotion and so on. And they discuss their really strong commitment to inclusion and diversity in education alongside their passion for teaching. And we hear about their Innovative Graduate Apprenticeship Degree Program that widens access by enabling workplace learning. It's a great conversation, and I really love the mutual respect and camaraderie that we can hear as they talk together. These are good colleagues. I hope you enjoy this part too. Can I come back to what you said, Matt, about your mental health isn't always great? And Oana, you said in your email to me about having previously during your post doc phase experienced burnout. Can you both talk a little bit more about those sorts of issues and experiences? Because I think we often don't normalise them enough as These can be part of our, like, everyday challenges dealing with mental health or when we are in, you know, like, I'd be curious what were the factors, Oana, that you thought contributed to the burnout experience?

Oana: 00:02:47

So I had like two different experience. First was the burnout before being a lecturer and that was me being, um, postdoctoral researcher being on a temporary contract really with a young child and also being a young, like having a young child being stressful enough. And at some point it just like, added up and just blew out really. And afterwards have being a lecturer because it was during the pandemic, the stress of trying to do my best upholding myself to very high standards

Geri: 00:03:20

Uh, Um,

Oana: 00:03:21

top of the pandemic lockdown. Um, I, my son was, how was he? Was like six, seven years old that time. So homeschooling and everything else. I was like every term, I would like going through a bit of a burnout, kind of like gradually. Getting better at identifying when I'm gonna burn out, not making it less impactful, but still, um, yeah, I'm getting better at it now. Uh, it's a sad story really to be getting better at dealing with a burnout, but, um, yeah, we keep learning and I think in the end I'm a better person because of all this hardship I've been through

Geri: 00:04:03

Mm.

Oana: 00:04:04

as a parent, as a, as a person really, and also as a, as a, um, educator here,

Geri: 00:04:10

Mm.

Oana: 00:04:11

to help our students when they're going through difficult times as well.

Geri: 00:04:17

What skills and techniques have you developed to help you deal with it a bit more?

Oana: 00:04:26

So first of all is that I have to take care of myself, like taking breaks and doing exercise. So one fun story is like, I picked up when I was at my lowest point, um, as a, back in 2018, um, My son was going, he was five, he was taking Taekwondo classes, and I was on the side, and the instructor said, Oh, would you like to, to try, like, parents are welcome to, to join, and he's like, Oh, I don't know, maybe. I went home, I searched, what is Taekwondo good for? Obviously, I'm a researcher, I have to analyze everything, is it good for sons? I was, like, really at a bad point then. Uh, so, okay, I was like, Whatever. I'm gonna go for it. There's no expectation whatsoever from me, not like in the workplace. So I just went for it. And obviously, like a year time I went to a competition. I said, Okay, I'll just go for a competition. It was in Glasgow and international competition. I said, I've never I've not a sporty person. I've not been in the when I was young, and I went for it. Just trying this stuff and new things and Finding this. Yes. And I got the gold medal in sparring.

Geri: 00:05:40

Good on you. Congratulations.

Oana: 00:05:42

It was in my age category and weight. So, uh, it's been interesting. And then went on and, um, again with the pandemic and everything, I had to slow down maybe with some training, but last year in the summer, I got my black belt, like first degree black belt, which was really stressful to go in there. Um, but yeah, I've, uh, I've worked hard for that one and got some more confidence in me trying new things. And also my body as well, like, you know, certain age now,

Geri: 00:06:14

Mm. And I can see you beaming there as you talk about this.

Oana: 00:06:20

I'm proud of it. Yeah.

Geri: 00:06:21

Yeah. Yeah. And was it something you discussed in the workplace? So for the pandemic situation, you're already working with Matt. Was that something you could come to the team and say, this is what I'm going through? How did you handle that aspect?

Oana: 00:06:38

Yeah, so at that time I was working as, uh, within the program and, uh, graduate apprenticeship program, but I wasn't as confident back then to communicate what I was going through. Maybe a posteriori, I would have, I would say to my line manager and maybe to Matt as well, like, yeah, like I need some, um, well, I could not take time off because it was so intensive. I could only like take one day or something. Just reducing maybe whatever I was doing and just doing the, uh, bare minimum for some periods of time to get my, my teaching really done and all the admin work. Um, but nothing going like further publications, research or anything else. But increasingly, I felt more confident as I, as I got more familiar with the workplace environment and the expectations. And then, as I was saying, getting this sense of belonging, longer sense in the, in the group. Maybe a year after, I think I remember I've I feel more confident and more comfortable, really,

Geri: 00:07:48

hmm.

Oana: 00:07:49

more comfortable, speaking up and saying what works, what doesn't for me or for the, for the program and the teaching, yeah.

Geri: 00:07:59

Yeah, lovely.

Oana: 00:08:01

And now I can say whatever I want.

Matt: 00:08:04

Yeah,

Geri: 00:08:05

And Matt, what about your own experiences?

Matt: 00:08:10

Yeah, I, I totally agree that we should be normalizing this, so I don't mind talking about it, uh, in a sense, but you know, I've been medicated for depression for, I just realized, 25 years, because, it was around about 2000 when I was finishing my undergrad that it started, um, which may not have helped me with the old undergrad, maybe that was my, uh, You know, um, I was doing a bit of self medicating, as it were, you know, at the time, but, um, it means that I'm very conscious of the fact when I, it's, you know, it's depression, right? So, if I hit a low, put it this way, right? Um, work and interaction with people can take quite a toll. you know, because you're putting on a front and I kind of joke to Oana that I act a lot of the time and I do just generally I act as a competent academic, you know, that, that's the role I play, but, uh, but in more, more sort of, um, interactionally it's, I will put on a good face, make stupid jokes, try and keep that consistent, that appearance. But every so often you just, there's nothing left in the tank. to put up that facade, you know, like when an actor's come off stage and they're just broken, I'm like, I can't do that. And that's when the mask slips. And, you know, I might say something snippy or the kind of thing that, you know, I would have to own later. And I noticed sometimes when I would get home after work, because I would, I'd be quite grumpy because I had, I had spent my energy for the day on being nice, right? Yeah,

Geri: 00:09:47

The work face.

Matt: 00:09:48

exactly. Yeah. And that is exhausting. And I think on top of teaching, which again, to my mind is something of a performance, you can be really tired at the end of the day if you've taught for a couple of hours.

Oana: 00:09:59

Definitely. Yeah.

Matt: 00:10:00

And in the intervening period been pretending to be this, you know, together, friendly, helpful person. Right. So by the end of the day, you can be pretty, pretty drained. So I need to be mindful of that in my interactions with others, but also mindful that they could also be. in that situation, right? Um, and that's why I really appreciate when someone like Oana is open and honest with me now that I think it's great that we have that kind of a relationship because then, well, we can kind of help each other be aware of each other, you know, so I think that's

Geri: 00:10:36

Mm hmm. Mm. What do you do to look after yourself, especially when the energy tank is on empty or low?

Matt: 00:10:49

Yeah, I just got a glare from Oana there. Um, apparently not enough. Um,

Geri: 00:10:53

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Matt: 00:10:55

It is something I struggle with a little bit. Um, I don't know. I think part of, part of the issue, and this is going to sound really grim, I realized, but you know, if you've been treated for depression for, for so long, you don't really enjoy anything. Right? So that sounds more grim than I meant it to be. What I think, um, having a break from people, if I'm honest, is sometimes just the best thing I can do just to recharge the tank. You know, I think that's, that's probably the kindest thing I can do for myself. And there were a couple of times, like when I was finishing my PhD, you know, I was working full time as well as doing the PhD. So, I would use that as an excuse to, well, for my birthday this year, can I get a couple of nights in a hotel by myself so I and write up? And, yes, I did write up. I mean, that was, it was, it was brilliant. I, you know, that's great, but also probably. Thinking about it, I was just getting a break from people. Um, so I still quite like that idea. I'm quite comfortable with my own company, frankly. I mean, I'm a bit of a, I was going to use a bad word there. I'm not a person I would want to hang out with probably, but I'm fine on my own. You know, um, so I think that's, that's the kindest thing I can do for myself. I quite like doing work. If I do take annual leave, I might actually own work in a paper or something, but that's fine because it's on my terms. Um. If that makes sense. So that's the kindest thing I think.

Geri: 00:12:26

Mm. Yeah.

Matt: 00:12:27

Okay. I'm looking to Oana for approval.

Geri: 00:12:35

I like the look at the beginning about you're not doing enough. Um, to have it taken more seriously.

Oana: 00:12:43

So. I hope so.

Geri: 00:12:44

Yeah. Yeah. I move us on, because I'm really curious about both of you choosing teaching and learning focused career paths because in many institutions, it's research that's, that is sort of the gold standard and valorized and you indicated Matt that when you were going for promotion, it was a harder route and it's clear from both of you The passion that you have for teaching and for the students and, what made you choose that path? What is it about it that you love?

Matt: 00:13:26

I think it took me a while to realize this, but I've always enjoyed the teaching and there's something about it's rewarding. It's potentially, if it's not too grand a thing to say, it's changing people's lives. So the reasons I've kind of touched on, you know, that The good feedback I've had or just having a good teacher who clearly cares that that can make all the difference. So I think I was thinking back to this and actually the first time I taught was so I barely scraped a degree first time around. It was actually in geology. Um, it's pretty random. Um, I was mostly just drinking and trying to date all the girls in the class at the time. So, I was not a good student. But even then, there were a couple of lecturers, I should say, who, I mean, I wouldn't have tolerated me. But they not only tolerated me, but tried to help. You know, they were fantastic. Um, uh, Tim Dempster, Gordon Currie, people like that. Ian Allison, I doubt they're listening. But if they are, you know, they were the people who have stuck with me 25 years later. However After that, I didn't use my degree. I went into IT support. And, um, in my final year at uni, I was working in the library here at, uh, doing IT support. And I remember my girlfriend at the time was, I could see her out studying for our finals. And I was sitting, working, doing my IT support job. Tells you that it gives you a clue as to how that panned out. Um, so anyway, I went into an IT support role. But in a higher education institution. And I very quickly, almost immediately saw an opportunity to teach. Um, this was maybe 2000, 2001, something like that, probably 2001. So it was before we had like Facebook and stuff like that, where people, if they wanted to be an aspiring musician, for example, a musician for hire, they would have a Facebook page. And it was a, it was a college of, or a university of, of musicians and actors, right? So it was, that was the line of work. So I developed a little course, um, to teach those people how to make a simple webpage, to promote themselves, get found in, in, was Google there? I think Google had just started, but get found online, right? And so they could, they could get work. Um, and that was at the time was somewhat novel, but that was That was the first time I realized, actually, this is what I want to be doing. I don't really care about building the websites myself, right? I'm more interested in, in, in the teaching. And again, that only happened because I had a supportive boss. Like, you know, the head of IT support was very comfortable with, or very, um, uh, friendly with the head of, um, finance or whatever it was for the institution. And they managed to set it up that I could do this, right? They had the, the. They created that opportunity. So that was an early example of me realizing that I wanted to teach and I think I just find it much more rewarding than the actual, what in my case would be programming, I guess, is the actual, actual work.

Geri: 00:16:26

And Oana, you were in research projects for a long time, as you said, in the formal methods. What was the trigger for you switching to more of a teaching track?

Oana: 00:16:37

Yes. Well, initially I started teaching in Romania. I was a, I had a tenured position there, um, back in 2004. Yeah, it was February, 2004. I was on research and teaching, basically, but then I went away to France to do a PhD and then, yes, I've been doing research for a long time, but still I was looking for a lecturer position, well, initially in France. That's why I came here to get experience abroad, to go back to France to have a good, a better application. To apply for a, for a job in teaching in universities in, in France. And then, yes, I've been doing research for a long time. I think in a way it was convenient for me as well, having a young child. And I enjoyed the, the research I was doing, but still, I was looking for. Um, jobs around here didn't particularly wanted to move and I've liked the environment here at the University of Glasgow and when in 2018, this opportunity came, I've applied for different jobs unsuccessfully and then this opportunity came for, um, what is called an LTS role, learning, teaching and scholarship. Which was relatively new back then. So it's not just teaching, but it's also scholarship, which basically I see it as research in computing education. I said, I enjoy that. And I think my experience also as a mom really and as you say role model and trying to teach my son lots of different things made me more interested in this aspect of education or how people learn and I say yeah I'm gonna go for it and that's how I've um landed the job this job and I'm still doing research. I'm still doing some formal methods research. I have a PhD student on it, on this topic, but mostly it's on computing education, uh, research. So it's um, and I don't have the stress of having to apply for funding, research funding. So that's, uh, that's good.

Geri: 00:18:53

That's a good thing. Indeed. So what, you've, you said you've got a matrix, a rubric for promotion criteria. What sort of things are you aiming for to meet those criteria?

Oana: 00:19:07

Um,

Matt: 00:19:10

We can break it down into the sections of the, there's the esteem.

Oana: 00:19:14

Yes. So the last one is the esteem. Then there's, um,

Matt: 00:19:18

impact,

Oana: 00:19:19

impact. Teaching and knowledge exchange, and that's knowledge exchange and impact. So I think the teaching part has the most weight.

Geri: 00:19:34

Hmm.

Oana: 00:19:36

Which I'm struggling a little bit, as Matt was saying. Like, I'm doing my job here. Presumably well enough, but I'm not developing like new programs. I'm not doing amazing stuff, and that's where I'm a bit, um, stressed about, let's say. Uh, there's more expectation of being very much involved in designing new learning programs, new experiences or whatnot, um, activities for students. Um, and I've, I've only, well, maybe two years ago started to get my head above the water and be able to think more broadly about these aspects. My first, I was just like trying to learn how everything works and doing my, my job.

Geri: 00:20:26

Yeah. What is covered in impact within a teaching track?

Matt: 00:20:32

Yeah. I mean, some of it's not dissimilar to impact on the research track, but it's, it's maybe a little bit more about being outward facing doing engagement. Um, so probably I mentioned the Ada Scotland Festival that I run. That's something that I would probably claim under there because it's reaching kids nationally, you know, and it's involving lots of external partners, sponsors and businesses and so on that are involved. Um, in an ideal world, I have. We have, we have one colleague who is publishing stuff that is being picked up by teachers. So, they're actually on the more traditional research and teaching track, but it's a perfect example of how pedagogy, pedagogical research can have impact because the stuff that she is designing is being picked up and trialed by teachers in the classroom. So that, that's a really nice example of impact in our world. But it doesn't have to be necessarily You know, four star research resulting in industry take up, you know, it can be a little bit different. So, um, it's tricky. Again, it's one of those things that's maybe less well understood in our in on our particular job track. Um, and I think Oana is being self self deprecating in terms of, you know, she is. She's deputy director of our program, right? So she is doing the leadership stuff, which is a big part of the promotion criteria, right? There you go. Yeah. You pull, you're doing the job. Um,

Geri: 00:22:04

I'm pulling a face here to go, duh.

Matt: 00:22:08

yeah. Yeah. Um, somebody got a recognition and rewards, uh, last year because somebody was doing a really good job, you know, uh, yeah. So

Oana: 00:22:22

I almost forgot that. I remember last year I was, breaking down at some point because I could not do something and then oh my god and then I admitted to Matt and said, Oh, remember, he said, Oh, I completely forgot this. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay.

Matt: 00:22:36

Yes.

Geri: 00:22:36

you needed that mirror again.

Matt: 00:22:38

Yes. And there was there was irrefutable evidence that had gone to our head of school, was signed off by probably the head of college or whatever said, yeah, this person can get the recognition and reward this year, right, because they're doing a good job. So um, yeah, that's the kind of evidence we can put forward for promotion, right?

Geri: 00:22:56

It's great. You've got a line manager boss who can help remind you of all of the evidence that you actually have.

Matt: 00:23:05

you help me with mine too?

Geri: 00:23:09

And so there are two areas that we could go in and whether we cover both or one or the other. So one is in focusing, having this teaching focus track and having this education and practice section, which is like formally saying this is important in our school in, are there any particular teaching innovations that you'd want to share? And I noticed that you just had a book, for example, published on web based, uh, work based learning in higher education. And the other aspect, and they may connect, is you both clearly have a passion for. Inclusion and diversity and Matt, you're an amazing ally for a lot of these gender based and inclusion initiatives. And Oana, you have talked about being committed to these initiatives in the past and in ongoingly. So something around the teaching innovations and the whole inclusion at work.

Matt: 00:24:15

Sure. Yes. One of the reasons I moved to computing science from, from my previous subject where I had the not so great boss was the opportunity to work on this apprenticeship program because it looked like an opportunity to improve access to higher education, to improve inclusion, if you like. Um, cause that's what I'd read about apprenticeships because if people aren't familiar with it. You're doing your degree. You will still get your degree in software engineering from the university, but you're also working and therefore getting paid.

Geri: 00:24:48

Ah, okay.

Matt: 00:24:49

Yeah, so that immediately removes or at least ameliorates a sort of financial barrier for people. Right? So, and it also gives them a leg up in terms of their career because they're graduating with four years work experience as well as the degree. Um, so that was what actually attracted me to do it in the first place. And, It's not necessarily the focus for our school, so we can take school leavers with the highest possible grades coming out of school, right, because supply and demand, we don't need to be widening access, right, as a school into our subject area, because computing is competitive, um, and we can take the straight A students, but that means that all of our students are kind of quite similar coming from particular backgrounds and it's not particularly inclusive in some respects, in some respects. Um, so the apprenticeship is kind of almost a way of improving access by stealth because, um, we negotiated to have a slightly lower entry tariff. So the grades you have to get to get onto our program. Are a little bit lower than the regular program, and the way that I present that is, oh, it's so that I can meet employers halfway. If they see potential in someone, then they only have four B's, you know, when the tariff is five A's or something, then I can say yes. But it's more than that, right? It's also so we can get those people who clearly have talents, clearly have ability, but for whatever reason, which may not be anything to do with their academic ability, have B's instead of A's, you know? So, we have actually done one paper on this, and we could do more, on how the program has widened access. Things that it has done is there are people who were kind of forced to go to university or sort of pushed towards university without any advice or any kind of, you know, they didn't, maybe they had poor advice from school or they were forced into a subject they didn't want to do. Um, I had one. There was one girl, one female student on our first cohort of apprentices who told their careers teacher they were, they like computers. So the advice was, OK, then you should do admin at university. Do a degree in admin. Right. So that's what they did because they did what their teacher told them. Um, but then years later, you know, in our late 20s, she comes back to do the apprenticeship with us. And that's only possible because at that stage in life. You have more bills, you have responsibilities, um, the only way that she could do that was by having a paid job at the same time. So a lot of the students that we have on the apprenticeship, not, we have a mixture, but certainly it's more varied than the regular program. Some of them have tried university before, um, and it hasn't worked out. Often it's because they've had to balance another job in order to pay to get them through university because of their socioeconomic background and their responsibilities. So they've been working in a pub or working in McDonald's and just it ends up that they drop out of uni because they can't balance both. Now they can come back to us and do this degree with us with that financial security. So that's important. I think that both of us that the program can. can support those people, attract those people. Um, and it seems to be working.

Geri: 00:28:16

Brilliant. Yeah. Oana, do you want to add anything and point out any other sort of innovations in teaching

Oana: 00:28:32

So the way this program is designed is to have more competency based learning, uh, embedded into some courses, especially the work based. assessment courses. These are year long courses in the final years, in the senior years, where students are taking projects in their workplace, um, mainly supervised by, uh, their line managers in the workplace, but also they have like a light touch supervision with academics, uh, from our program in the university. And While they're doing their, carrying out the work on their projects, they also have to set up a portfolio where they evidence the competencies they've achieved during their projects or in the workplace, really. So we have some, um, framework. Of competencies based on the more general engineering framework in the UK. And in addition, they also have to write a reflective essay on how they've, um, when they really reflect on how they've achieved this competency. So that helps them. really know better, know themselves better, know what are their strengths, what are their weaknesses, especially as they go from one year to another, they have two reflective essays. They know from one year, okay, I've done this, I've achieved that. Next year, okay, I'm going to work towards these new competencies, competencies in terms of, as we call them, knowledge plus skills and professional dispositions. Um, so this is, no other course, I think, in computer science where students can be so reflective of their learning. So I think it's very useful, especially for, um, future or like already software engineer practitioners if they, when they go into the workplace to know their strengths, if they want to apply for further, um, accreditations, they can easily put something together and yeah, just know themselves better. I think this is, I was new to this reflective practice when I got into this role of learning, teaching and scholarship, and I really like it and embraced it. I'm not as good because I'm formal methods person, bullet points and formulas. I'm getting better at, at, at it. So still a

Geri: 00:31:01

But it's the thinking behind it, isn't it? Not how it's expressed on paper, that's just sort of the external manifestation. Do you want to say any more about that reflective journaling? Because sounds like you're also trying to apply it to yourself and your own own role. Is that what you're saying?

Oana: 00:31:21

Yes. Because, well, in the end, I'm, um, at the University of Glasgow and many universities in UK, like all of them, you have to, take, um, what is it called? P Cap. It's a postgraduate

Matt: 00:31:38

certificate. Certificate

Oana: 00:31:39

in teaching practice. Uh, so I, I did that when I started, um, because I wasn't doing enough in the first year while it was mandatory anyway. And then because of

Geri: 00:31:49

In the pandemic?

Oana: 00:31:51

in the pandemic and because of my role I had to do some two more courses and then I said okay if I can do more to get a postgraduate diploma in academic practice and where I had to be yes more reflective in different aspects and also being um carrying out educational research and then I said okay I'll just go for it all because I don't pay for it so I'm gonna I'm doing a master in education so now it's the final year dissertation that I'm doing at the moment, which I'm a bit behind. I have to admit it's, it's really funny to be. So when I started, I was a lecturer and a student at the same time. Um, well, funny in the sense that it's just brings me down to earth. Seeing, understanding what students are going through. I've asked for many extensions for my coursework, uh, in the past few years. And even now, like yesterday, I met with my supervisor for Master in Education and I was like, oh my God, I didn't do much. Okay, I'm gonna work harder from the next few months. And I say, yeah, this is what my students say. The same, you know, it, it's, it's funny. But um, yeah. Still learning.

Geri: 00:33:01

So you just mentioned that, as a by the way, that on top of your day job, you're doing a master's program

Oana: 00:33:07

Yeah.

Geri: 00:33:08

in education.

Oana: 00:33:10

Yeah. Well, I've got my black belt now. I can,

Geri: 00:33:13

You've got your black belt.

Oana: 00:33:14

I can do.

Geri: 00:33:15

this is your black belt in education.

Oana: 00:33:19

I'm not going to do a PhD in education. No, that's fine. I think

Matt: 00:33:27

that's really interesting though, but you've reflected on the fact that your students are going through the same thing. What I find, I totally just do not understand is how all of our lecturers have been through this process where they've had to do this course and have had pieces of work to turn in. And they've invariably. Drop the ball on some of them, but they can't seem to make the connection between that and their students coming and asking for an extension. So particularly for our apprentices, because they're juggling work and university, I've asked all of our colleagues if they ask for an extension, just give it to them. It's like you doing your postgraduate certificate, you're balancing two things, and yet they're both compulsory. You have to do them both. Um, and the disconnect that people seem to have in their heads, that, well, that's not the same as me, that's something different, this is a bad student, it's like, well, no, they're, they're, we're no better, frankly. I mean, academics and deadlines is a whole podcast in itself, right? It's, it's, I just can't understand why people don't have that empathy or that reflective capacity to realize that there's probably a good reason for this. It's not just because they've been lazy or their time management has been bad. The time management. I've seen in some colleagues is astonishingly bad, right? So, um, yeah, I just thought it was interesting that Oana there has reflected on that Um, and, uh, realize that, yes, it's the same for our students, you know, so I'm a big fan of the reflective practice. And it is weird that we do that so much in a computing science degree on a software engineering degree, but I literally teach it in the first week of first year. I give them a framework for reflection because it doesn't come naturally to students from, particularly from that kind of mindset or background, I think. And see it in colleagues as well, right? It's, um, but I'm, I assess these fellowship applications, um, associated with learning and teaching practice. And you can spot the ones that have come from the hard sciences or the computing science versus those from the humanities because the folks in humanities are much more used to writing like that. Um, whereas, you know, one wouldn't expect a formal methods person necessarily to take to that as well. So I think it's a really useful skill for everyone to have.

Geri: 00:35:47

And that's interesting because I was actually going to bring that up. I, I always ask for a reflective component as part of the courses I've taught. And it's always a struggle with computer scientists or people from the computer science background to you. Hmm. Hmm. argue the value. So I'm really curious, could you share a little bit about the framework for reflection? Because it sounds like it's good for students and it's good for all of us. It could be a useful framework.

Matt: 00:36:17

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I can provide a link to it, which might

Geri: 00:36:22

Oh, excellent. Thank

Matt: 00:36:23

because I can't remember exactly where I got it from off the top of my head. But, um, basically it gives, it gives the students, first of all, a kind of, uh, phrase bank. a sort of set of vocabulary to use, which, um, you know, doesn't, as you know, I, I quite like writing, I quite like words, so I don't struggle with that necessarily, and I'm, I can easily reflect in my shortcomings, that comes naturally as well, um, but having a phrase bank where they can literally construct sentences and then plug in the details, and then I, I see that as the kind of, uh, what do you call them, the Uh, the stabilizers on a bike. Eventually that can come off. It's like the scaffolding and that, you know, once they've practiced that, they'll be able to come up with those sentences themselves. But there's also sort of different forms of reflection we can introduce them to. Sort of looking back, but also looking forward. And making sure that they can close the loop and say, well, this is what I've learned from this. So next time I will do that. So, I mean, I can rattle through it all in half an hour in class, but it gives them the tools just to make it less daunting. Like, there's nothing more daunting to a computing scientist to say, here's a blank page. Now write me some reflections.

Geri: 00:37:36

Yeah, yeah.

Matt: 00:37:36

an algorithm, I suppose, you know, a formula that they can apply and really get used to it.

Geri: 00:37:44

Do you still have a reflective, a written reflective practice, Matt?

Matt: 00:37:49

Do you know, I don't actually. Um, probably the last time I did it was, well actually that's not entirely true. Probably the last time I went for promotion I had to do a little reflective piece and I will have to do it again if I go for the Principal Fellowship of the HCA or something. So I will have to do it again but there's nothing systemic, there's nothing in place where I have to do it really. Um, which is interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

Geri: 00:38:16

Yeah. But, but you do also sound naturally reflective, you know, in all that you've talked about.

Matt: 00:38:23

Yes. Yes. I just don't write it down, I guess.

Oana: 00:38:26

When we have the, at least I know, when we have the annual reviews, the, that, that's where some reflection, a lot of reflection has to go in there, uh, to see what went well, what didn't, and where to improve. You got feedback from students, then you have feedback from a line manager, and you have to put it all together

Geri: 00:38:48

Mm.

Oana: 00:38:49

move on to the next year.

Geri: 00:38:53

Lovely. I want to keep talking, but I know we're up against time. Um, are there any things that you wanted to say here that we haven't talked about yet, that you just want to. mention in closing.

Matt: 00:39:11

Sure, yeah, I think. No, I think we've pretty much covered it.

Geri: 00:39:20

A short interjection here. You'll recognize this next part from part one, and I took the liberty of including it in part one because I thought it actually, went to the theme of leadership that Matt was talking about. And I want to repeat it here because I just think it's so important about that sense of belonging and what we can do to create it. So over to Matt.

Matt: 00:39:55

No, I think we've pretty much covered it. I think that there's something about, something that Oana brought up to me before and she's brought up today is that sense of belonging. And it's so easy for us to destroy or at least damage that sense of belonging, um, in ways that we don't intend. Um, so I think that's really important for people to feel like they do belong. I understand that. It's part of that, psychological safety and everything that we talked about before. But, um, there, there are things that leaders can do that can end up inadvertently damaging that sense of, of belonging. Um, again, speaking from experience in the past, I remember having a leader, a boss who kind of positioned themselves between the higher ups and what the team was doing and was maybe not even consciously taking, essentially taking credit for what you were doing. So it felt like, and I don't think it was intentional actually, really, if I'm honest, but unless you reflect on that and realize that that's how it's being perceived, that this looks like it's all your work, then that's going to damage other people's sense of belonging. They're going to feel like, well, what's the point in me doing this work? What if no one knows I'm contributing to it? So you feel a little bit disconnected from that. Um, the other thing is a little bit more subtle, I think, and it's this idea of the perception of having a favorite. Um, you know, I remember my line manager in one instance was kind of the boss's, the head of department's favorite, right? And that person did not want to change that relationship. So they didn't, sorry, my immediate line manager didn't want to rock the boat, as it were, or make themselves unpopular with this person who thought they were amazing. So that resulted in quite a spineless approach to management. They, they would never advocate for the team to the higher up because they didn't want to cause trouble. They just wanted to, you know, to enjoy their position of, of, of favor. So that's something to watch out for. But also, and this is, this is where I have failed. I haven't told Oana this, unless she's seen my notes. But, um, A member of the team did say to me that they were jealous of how I treated Oana and, and others. Um, that they perceived it as a little bit of favoritism. Now, I was able to address that and explain it's because we work so closely on the program together that naturally we're going to be working more closely together than Someone who we don't even teach the same courses, right? So I was able to address it, but it was a wake up call to me about how things can be perceived Because that person immediately then feels a little bit more distant. It damages that sense of belonging And I think that if I if they hadn't mentioned that to me I don't think as reflective as I think I am I don't think I would have picked up on that So, um, that's an interesting one. It's easy to, it's easy to fix some things and think, well, I won't be like that, but there's stuff happening that is so subjective that I just don't know how, how to address it before it becomes a problem.

Geri: 00:43:06

Yeah. Part of it is what you've done already though, isn't it, Matt, in creating an environment where people feel like they belong, feel like you're open and are able to bring it up.

Matt: 00:43:22

Yeah, that's true. I at least they did admit to it. Yes that I say that's good And I'm glad they told me because it gave me a chance to to you know Give my point of view and explain why that might be the perception. Yeah.

Geri: 00:43:34

Yeah. Because as you said, we don't often know how. What other people are going through, because they're human as well, and they're filtering their experiences through their own background insecurities, past bosses, um, yeah, there's lots, lots going on. So yeah, it sounds like that foundation of a good, open, supportive group is key for that.

Matt: 00:44:01

Yeah. Yeah

Geri: 00:44:03

Yeah. Oana, anything in wrapping up?

Oana: 00:44:09

Just to say I love your podcast episode and it's been very helpful along the years listening to your discussions with all your invite. Yeah invited people. And, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's been a, it's been a journey learning about, like I've started in 2016. I was thinking, when did I start listening to podcasts? And I went back to this and it's like 2016, I had a few. So yours, because I was working with HCI people, I think that's how I found about your podcasts. Uh, yours was the one about universities, people and culture, university, academic life. And then I had others with mental health as I was going through my ages and then, uh, self help podcasts and health and well being in general. So these are like some core podcasts I've been following and been very helpful along the years. In some cases, like extremely helpful, really. So thank you. Thank you again for your work.

Geri: 00:45:11

Thank you. Thank you, Oana. That's lovely to hear. And I'm so grateful to have had this conversation that Oana, that you reached out, to point, point me to Matt and that together you've just been such wonderful guests and sharing, and this will be really useful for lots of other listeners. So thank you for being part of it, both of you.

Matt: 00:45:36

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Geri: 00:45:42

You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related links for this podcast on www. changingacademiclife. com. You can also subscribe to Changing Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify and Google Podcasts. And I'm really hoping that we can widen the conversation about how we can do academia differently. And you can contribute to this by rating the podcast and also giving feedback. And if something connected with you, please consider sharing this podcast with your colleagues. Together, we can make change happen.