S6E2 Liam Bannon (Part 2) on values & what matters

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life. I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is a podcast series where academics and others share their stories, provide ideas and provoke discussions about what we can do individually and collectively to change academic life for the better.

Liam: 00:00:30

it can actually give you an appreciation of life, and of the fact that you don't know how much life you have, but you should pay attention to how you spend it, and who you spend it with.

Geri: 00:00:48

And that's Liam Bannon. Who's just talking about. "You don't know how much life you have, but you should pay attention to how you spend it. And who you spend it with?" I'm really happy to finally be able to bring part two of a conversation with Liam Bannon. Hopefully you will have already listened to part one of our conversation that was released in April, 2024, but it was actually a conversation from 2017. And. And at the end of that conversation, Liam did allude to the fact that there was some health issues that he had going on. So, what he's been reflecting on in this episode is the implications of what he's been going through. And he wanted this to be from the heart as well. He explains to us at the beginning that in 2015, he had a very serious cancer diagnosis for lung cancer. That was supposed to have been stage four and terminal then. And he's also had some subsequent issues with a brain tumor along with the lung cancer And yet here he is now in 2024. However, we are recording this interview from his hospital bed and he's on oxygen therapy. Because he's had some subsequent issues arise with both the lung and the brain. Part of being in hospital, for whatever reason, we weren't able to connect via Zoom or some other better quality platform for recording the audio. And as a compromise, we've basically just recorded open audio from a what's app call. And. So I do apologize in advance that some parts of the audio will be quite difficult to hear or understand. You will have heard some of this in the excerpt at the beginning. And Liam also wanted to make sure that I explained that his voice quality has been affected by the lung cancer. So it's a lot more strangulated and hoarse than normally. So this in combination with the more open audio quality isn't the best quality, but the content is really gold. Because of that where relevant or I think with where there is a particularly important things that Liam saying, I've tried to repeat or contextualize what he's said so it makes it easier to listen to, and there were other parts that just weren't listenable to at all. So I've just summarized them briefly. And this is one episode, where you may find it particularly useful to follow the transcript along with the audio that you can access, by your podcast app or on the web page. Liam also sent me a text after the call about something that he forgot to comment on. And I can read that directly now from his text. "One thing I did not comment on re my illness was how my brain tumor began to affect all my faculties, perceptual, cognitive affective. In a very serious way in mid 2001. And I was very lucky to have a craniotomy, to completely remove the tumor in Jan 2022, restoring all my faculties since January, 2022, spending 2022 and 2023 to rehabilitate physically. Recovering my mental faculties was an amazing experience." End of quote. And that's a direct read from the texts that he sent and what I think you hear there is the appreciation for life that he now has based on this experience with his health, that even though he's talking about really serious craniotomy brain tumor rehab, the appreciation for having a couple of good years, with the rehab and getting back some of those faculties. And that's some of the main themes of what we talk about here. A lot of it is about the perspective that can be really important to take, a stepping back from the day-to-day minutiae and challenges and problems, and really stepping back and thinking about. What is it that's important. And. The trade offs that we might make for our career when we focus on the day-to-day or we don't take that time to step back and that the costs of that and for Liam, he talks about those costs in terms of some of the relationship costs. And particularly, I encourage you to listen through to the end because he just has some really quite deep and compelling things to say about about that stopping, reflecting, thinking about what's important. Uh, putting a focus on the relationships and the people. And just really being true to yourself. So I really want to thank Liam and for being prepared to have this conversation for his honesty and vulnerability in it. And I hope that. It's a salient reminder to all of us that we do have a limited time on this earth and it's, I know it's something, not something that we all often want to think about. But how we can perhaps learn from people who've gone through this in a really hard way. To make better decisions now while we can. To live a life that is meaningful, that is about people and connections that are so important. So I thank you for your patience in advance for listening to this and persisting despite the audio. As I said, I hope that my little interjections might help clarify some parts where it's not so clear and do stick with it to the end, because it's really worthwhile. Thank you, Liam. It's really great that we've been finally able to connect and we've not got the ideal technical setup. So we'll just see how we go here. When we finished the last conversation that we had that I released, you alluded to some different health issues that had been going on for you. Do you want to just elaborate a little bit and give some context for that?

Liam: 00:07:53

Yes, well, just to keep it fairly brief, because I could spend a couple of hours on it. Um, but anyway, the basic thing is that when I talked it was back in 2017. I'd already been involved, um, in quite a major set of issues connected with my health, because, um, in 2015. Um, I was actually working in, in Brazil. I was a visiting professor at the university there, the Federal University in Rio. And I was actually just about to go there again, and I, um, did a health check, and was kept in for observation, and a few days later, from zero, and like, thinking I was fine, I was told there was some issues, and then I was told I had cancer, and then I was told, Quite soon after that, in a day or two, that actually was quite serious, and then it's stage three, and the next thing I was told, it's actually, no, it's stage four I was actually, um, told it was terminal. That was the actual word, um, and so it was kind of, uh, quite jarring in terms of there I was going along, or moving along. And suddenly this happened. So it's, it's suddenly, uh, yeah, and then I was told initially at that time, but I actually, I was told basically, I wasn't given a specific time periods in like, but it was, I mean, it was get your things in order, um, there's not much we can do, yeah, I mean, that's certainly, that's, uh, a change, or a stop to your plans, or whatever you might be doing. Yeah, I mean I had to cancel going back to Rio at that stage. I didn't, I haven't been back there since. So from October 2015 until now, that is, uh, September. in 2024. I've actually been dealing with the cancer. Now that doesn't mean that I'm in the hospital every day, but it's meant that I've been, I've had this. I've had this, uh, sword of Damocles over me. So you're never quite sure, um, how you're going to feel or what's happening. So in between this time, in those several years, I've actually had periods where I've been reasonably almost healthy, I would say. But then there are other times when I get quite sick and I also So I was technically diagnosed with, uh, uh, lung cancer, and, um, that's the major primary cancer. But then, sometime later, I was, um, given that it was stage 4 and potentially had spread. They found that I had a, uh, tumor in my brain, so that became another issue. And that tumor actually, um, they then did radiation on that, and and after doing the radiation, I had after effects from that, which, um, meant I was getting seizures, and intermittent seizures But they were recurrent, and that meant it affected my ability to drive. And I live in a house, but not on a public transport route. And I'm living alone, since my cancer diagnosis. So, yes. So secondly, Everyday life becomes quite different.

Geri: 00:12:08

Yeah, I cannot imagine.

Liam: 00:12:13

So I think in terms of my work, well, I just connected with, um, my academic work. I had already been, I had moved out of my, which taken retire early retirement from my, my Limerick position.. And, uh, I was doing, um, various visiting placements. I was taking visiting positions. Um, In different parts of the world. And, uh, well, so I, in that sense, it's, I wasn't leaving my regular job. Yeah. I used to have. So, that in one sense meant, well, it was good and bad, I guess, because, it was bad in that you didn't have your, your own, or your, local network, or the people you've been with, or your work colleagues really, because I wasn't in a workplace. And the people I've been visiting in Brazil are not around. I've seen maybe one of them, since that time. It's uh, yeah, so actually that's one of the difficulties and when you're working or like I've been also connected in internationally a lot and I got a lot of um, satisfaction out of my international collaboration. And that's both the academic work. Um, but also the social, in the sense that you're meeting people at conferences and workshops, etc. And these are people that I've been meeting, say, in some of the CSCW cases since around 88, the very early days of CSCW. Mm, yeah. So they have been my work colleagues for many years. 20 years or something more and, uh, yeah, so suddenly not being able to give talks at conferences or meet people has actually been, uh, I would say quite a difficult experience. I mean, cause I've actually, you know, inevitably people are busy and they have their own private lives and family life and so they're not. In contact or they don't see me. I'm not physically at the meetings where the people are meeting also. So this, yes, it makes me reflect a bit more on just the, ephemerality of, of relations. Even though I, like I thought I had a very strong, HCI and PDA, Participative Design and CSCW and Interaction Design. They're actually somewhat distinct communities. Especially in Europe where I've been working in space mainly. Um, but it was quite, you know, I knew people in those for over 20 years, you know, or more. Yeah, yeah. And then, suddenly, just kind of pretty much disappeared because I wasn't there.

Geri: 00:15:50

They are interesting reflections about the local global tradeoffs that we make. 'cause it is one of the things that we, many of us love about the academic life is the mobility that we have to work in different places and travel in to different places. And you talked about that last time where you worked and traveled an enormous amount and the international networks that we have. But what you're pointing to is the quality of the relationships is, um, put into sharp contrast, I guess, in that when you get to the situation like you've been dealing with in these last years.

Liam: 00:16:31

Yes, yes. I mean, I was saying about, how much I've learned from all the different places I've been um, the people I've met, and then say, from, say, 2000 or so, or the late 90s on, I did a lot of mentoring, um, work and talks in different places, and so was the, the, um, possibility of being able to talk with other people, being able to give your perspective. In my case, a kind of more human centered one, and that encouraged people to look at Things a little bit differently maybe than the mainstream, but I appreciate it so, and so the opportunity to be able to do that in different places was something that I, I enjoyed very much. It's always very much not just the everyday or like the academic interactions when you're with people in different places, but, uh, it's just, yeah, the silencing. I'm not trying to make it sound like, uh, or I'm not accusing anybody of anything. It's not. People are, you know, involved in, you know, they have their family. Yeah. Yeah. Most people do and they have children and there's a lot of. It's very, very difficult, I think, you know, for anybody. I don't actually, I can remember, I don't say it in my 30s or even early 40s, thinking, I don't know how young academics with families, you know, and partners and children, babies, how the hell do they do it? How people are able to juggle all of these things. And maybe in a sense, the answer is you have to, you know, be careful. And I don't know how, given the career, um, difficulties in developing your career in the world these days. I mean, in academia especially, I really think, I mean, I feel for young academics because I think it's, uh, the pressures they're under are quite, quite enormous. I honestly think it's, um, you know, I've talked to some people about this, younger people, um, where they're reflecting on What can they do or can they, is this this academic role the right one for them because of some of these pressures? I'm thinking if they did some other, I'm not saying necessarily, I mean in many different parts, or kinds of workplace, there are different pressures and I'm not saying there's no pressures in other areas of the workplace. There are, but in some cases they can be different. Yeah, I think sometimes the pressure you have as an academic is that, uh, You just put on yourself in a way. So in some sense it's not necessarily the manager who is forcing you to stay on on the weekend. It's actually you are taking on another reviewing responsibility yet another, uh, journal editorship, yes. Et cetera, you know? Yes. And, and then you've got friends who are asking you to review their papers and you don't want to let them down. And, and so it means, I mean, I certainly, and again, I'm not trying to play what we say in Irish, in the Irish language 'An Béal Bocht', which means the poor mouth and like sounding poor me. But I mean, there is a sense when I look. back and think when I came back to Limerick, which at the time there was a holiday over 20 years when, and that doesn't mean, I'm not saying that, nobody said I couldn't take a holiday. You had students, you had projects, you had, um, uh, postdocs, visitors, you'd, like, so you just end up taking on Way more in a sense. If, if you actually did have a, a manager in the classical sense, I think they would be able to, in some cases, say, you're taking on too much. Yes. You know, cut down a bit.

Geri: 00:21:22

So you're pointing to the fact that we have to be a lot more personally responsible and reflective of the choices that we're making.

Liam: 00:21:32

Yes, exactly.

Geri: 00:21:34

But how do we get, how do we get that perspective?

Liam: 00:21:38

Well, it's really difficult when you're in the middle of, it's a bit like, you know, if you're in the middle of a rushing crowd and you're trying to get your feet to the floor. You want to stay. I need to stop. It's very difficult. Because everything is moving around you. And also some of the people that you might want to talk to or to find as people that might give you some stability or a way of thinking about or perspective on the situation. It's not always easy to find those people, first of all.

Geri: 00:22:18

Because we're all probably caught up in the same mad rush. Yeah.

Liam: 00:22:23

Yeah.

Geri: 00:22:24

Yeah.

Liam: 00:22:25

So it's quite, it's quite difficult. And for many people too, if they're in that, it makes it difficult for them to, to actually say to another person, well, Perhaps this isn't for you. So on the one hand, you have the problem that some cases, people who are academics, given that they do have a commitment to it, it's hard for them to sometimes allow some people to go away or, you know, to lose them because you feel that they are intellects that might flourish. Yeah. But on the other hand, I don't know, I mean, I guess myself, I, I never thought of it in a sense, I never thought of myself as a career academic, you know. But the part of me that had a free spirit. I was

Geri: 00:23:22

just going to say, you're always, you know, the opposite in the sense of doing your own thing and not playing the game so classically.

Liam: 00:23:34

Yeah, but you get caught up and in the end you, I mean, yes, it's quite difficult, um, and so there was a period then for about 20 years when I, I was inside in a way, and it was only then when I, I took early retirement that, that was the deliberate, It wasn't really retirement in a sense. I mean, I stopped my position because I was tired. I just, um, I wanted to change. I was getting more and more into a managerial, directorial role and I, that wasn't really what I thought I wanted to do. Uh, I want it to be more, I can remember speaking, looking at some of my group. who were having kind of a lunch outside my office, and I was realizing, you know, I'm getting Separated from my group. I'm not actually doing work with them, you know Like just leading them in a way. I mean, you're mentoring some of those people. Yes. But in some cases, I wasn't actually doing as much of that. And I was actually traveling and doing other international commitments. And I started to feel this is getting a bit strange. The relation between, um, My group, ostensibly, in one place, and the work I was doing so it just made me reflect and move away. I decided then I decided I would take early retirement at fifty five. Which is quite young, but I wanted just to be able to take on different challenges and just, or pick up on different things and not feel pushed or entrained into a particular way. So I cut back on, on the international, you know, editorial things and challenges.

Geri: 00:25:38

So, what are the things that when you look back that you remember as really important for you and what you're really proud of, because what you've also pointed to is there have been trade offs in all of these decisions, but I'm just curious about, you know, given all the trade offs, what are the things you'd celebrate about it?

Liam: 00:25:57

It's interesting, I can remember even back when I was a post doc and I wanted to write, to make a contribution at some level, I wasn't necessarily looking to be a big professor at some big university or anything, that wasn't my goal. But I wanted to, I felt I wanted to try and write or have something published that some people who I was kind of had some academic, respect for felt was okay. So that was the idea. Like if I'd made that, I would be okay. I didn't really care about getting a hundred plus publications.

Geri: 00:26:55

So even though you haven't chased the numbers or the publications, I can say from being a member of those communities that your work has been incredibly impactful because It's brought new perspectives, it's created new links, and I think looking at the citations for some of your top cited papers lots of other people have found them impactful as well. And Liam goes on to describe here some of the interactions that he had with lots of people going back to the 1980s and his time in the U S and also talking about coming back to Europe and working with some of the European networks and the audio was just a little bit too hard to understand. So I've, given you the summary here and we'll pick up again.

Liam: 00:27:44

But there was a lot of energy and intellectual energy. And also it so happened that there were a lot of, uh, people who got on really well with each other personally.

Geri: 00:27:58

So that, that points back to all of those international networks and professional relationships that you had that you also reflected on in the beginning about there's some of the trade offs that you make because they're more, distributed and tied to the work. I'm, I'm also just curious what would be. How would you talk to your younger self now based on the reflections you have from this perspective and what you've been going through in terms of choices, decisions, trade offs?

Liam: 00:28:33

I don't know. Sometimes I think,

Geri: 00:28:36

And again, the audio just really wasn't very clear at all, but Liam was talking about how he actually really wanted to go traveling and really enjoyed his post-doc and not being over burdened with teaching duty and meeting, lots of interesting people in computing and cognitive science and communication and sociology and anthropology, and it just being a wonderful few years for him. And we pick up with Liam again, as he then goes to the question of, well, what about settling?

Liam: 00:29:14

So, you can do that. The question then becomes, well, what about settling? And I mean, I have to, uh, that's an issue, I guess. Because there's some people I know, when I went to Canada initially, I have Irish friends who are doing their PhDs, but they were very clear either they were going to go back to Ireland, or they weren't, they were going to go stay in Canada. That was, you know, they're going to make a life, that's what they decided, and then they'd ask me, what am I doing, and well I don't know really, maybe I'll go down to California, maybe I'll,

Geri: 00:29:54

And Liam goes on to talk about that he was thinking about where to go next or where not to go and ended up making the decision to come back to Europe and not specifically to Ireland, but then it not always being easy to get your wishes, to match up to the opportunities that were available or the dream of what you'd like.

Liam: 00:30:18

It ended up, there were some interesting job opportunities in Scandinavia, and the work they were doing was interesting, so I, on that side, I was interested to go there, but it wasn't necessarily the, uh, the place that I was expecting to go to. It's kind of ironic that I'm, you know, when I look back on it now. My time there between 1988 and 93, so it was, uh, five, six years. But I made a lot of contact and good friends there who I know quite well. And that's still, in a sense, it's almost my home community in some way. Even after 20 years away.

Geri: 00:31:06

Liam then picks up on the question of what advice to give and, and that it made him think about a few people that he's talked with privately when they'd been questioning their own motivations and career choices. And these are people who are 20, 30 years younger than him. And his own reflection was that he didn't rethink this often enough.

Liam: 00:31:31

This time I was in California, about going back, I had this idea that I would like to get back to Europe and that was an override goal, but I'm just thinking in terms of some of these other people I've talked with, um, it was cases where they were questioning, they had other, um, interests at times, but they weren't sure the academic path was the one for them. Given the pressures there are on the younger academics or with families, whatever. I mean, I certainly, um, thought that I was cautioning them against it completely, but I certainly was saying, you know, you really Need to think about this and then, you know, go with what you feel inside yourself. Yeah. Are you really feeling this is really motivating me or not?

Geri: 00:32:39

So just to repeat what Liam said there, because I think it was so important. Liam proposed that you really need to think about this and you need to go with what you feel inside yourself. Are you really feeling like this is motivating me or not? And he goes on to talk about. People, even in their thirties now starting to feel this kind of overburden and feeling the pressures. And he talked about the challenges of teaching these days and the. Uh, increasing demands from students that are being placed on academics. And what he also sees as some of the lack of respect and some of the breakdown of traditional values and talking about it, becoming a bit of a rat race in some ways. And then he poses the question What's the goal. What do you want to do with your life?

Liam: 00:33:36

You know, what's, what's the goal, you know. What do you want to do with your life? Um, what, what can you see at the end of it? It's, uh.

Geri: 00:33:49

And for you now, like, how do you reflect on what's important in your life now?

Liam: 00:33:57

Well, that's a difficult one, I must say. Um, I have quite a few. I sometimes feel a bit like, uh, a cartoon road runner, and he's going along over the cliff, you know, I mean, well, we're all terminal in one sense, you know? We all, we, we, we will die. But, uh, there's, for some of us it may be, um. to happen sooner. And then, well, actually, it's sort of amazing that I'm still, um, given my prognosis

Geri: 00:34:45

yes, stage four in 2015, and here we are September 2024. That's really amazing.

Liam: 00:34:53

Well, there is, um, yeah, I have, I do have regrets because I, In some cases, I didn't, yes, I didn't prioritize maybe my relations and my personal relations with people as much as I should have at times. I let things move along.

Geri: 00:35:20

I think it's interesting that Liam goes on now to talk about some of the issues around those relationships with people and not perhaps giving them the priority that he now reflects on as being important.

Liam: 00:35:38

I can remember when I was traveling and I took this time out this year. In 1985, 86, in Asia, and I remember the people talking to me then. I was actually, wasn't that young, I mean, well, 31 or 2. But I can remember asking me, you know, where I was from, and how old I was, and then they'd say, Are you married yet? And I'd be thinking, wow. No, I don't, no, not yet, not yet, you know. And have you children? No, not yet. No, I was going to take care of you in your old age. No, I'm kind of, we have, we have things for that in the West, you know, but actually, the reality is At the end of the day, sometimes, family has become quite, quite important. And if you haven't been around them, then no, you're not, they're not there. Because you've physically moved and lost those connections. In some cases, it's not so easy to reconnect, you know. So, yes, I've, I've had to handle or come to terms with some of those lack of choices, you know, in some cases where I, I didn't, well, I did some decisions, but I didn't make all of them, you know, or I let things slide a bit, or wasn't pushed on things. And, and those have, um, I guess maybe part of me was feeling out there was this continuing explorer sort of role, you think of the Arctic Explorers in the early 1900s. You know, like some of the people, even in their 60s, they're still out. You know, whether it's on ships or on, on airplanes up in the Arctic. And sometimes they end up dying up there, like it's, you know, they crack. But in a way, it's, it's almost like that's the fitting end for the, for the explorer. But, uh, have a. I had a sense that I would be In some ways, yeah, traveling, mentoring, being in different communities, hopefully in that kind of, for me, being able to hopefully contribute something, um, as I was older in different settings, different communities, but actually because of my mobility problems, I'm actually not been able to travel even. Yeah. That is something I really miss. I miss being able to see people, being able to see places. Yeah. And the idea, you know, to be able to just hike a mountain or swim. So I miss it.

Geri: 00:38:52

And Liam will continue on now and remind us that it's important that every now and then we stop and take stock. And also he reminds us to take our holidays. So I let Liam pick that up.

Liam: 00:39:09

So I think that's another thing every so often that they take stock, you know. Whether you have it, it's a holiday period or And take your holidays, by the way. Yes. If you're not Get out of where you are. I mean, I took a few days at the end of the conference or whatever. I didn't really get out of the setting. And I It's gonna allow yourself to think of where you're at, who you're with at the time, what's important in your life, you know? Yeah. It's one of the parts of it, it's ironic, but people say there's a lot about getting a serious cancer, which is very often it can be. In some ways, I mean, it's, you know, it's ridiculous in one sense, but it can actually give you an appreciation of life, and of the fact that you don't know how much life you have, but you should pay attention to how you spend it, and who you spend it with.

Geri: 00:40:19

And if I can just repeat that, because I know it was a bit hard to hear, but I think so important. So he was talking about taking holidays and allowing yourself time to think about where you're at who you're with at the time what's important in your life. And reflecting on the fact that when you get a serious cancer diagnosis, Uh, it can actually give you a real appreciation of life. And the fact that you don't know how much life you will have. But you should pay attention to how you spend it. And who you spend it with

Liam: 00:41:04

and not to just suddenly be grumbling about the day to day things that are going on. But, um, really prioritize and remember and remind yourself every so often, about, the fact that you're If you are in good health, the fact that you have a partner who you care about and cares about you, hopefully, and potentially have, have, um, family or children or whatever that is there in your life, those are so, so important relative. To, like, at the end of the day, what is going to be important in terms of your, your legacy, and you know, I mean, I, it's nice to think that, To people who remember something that I wrote or, or maybe even just words, like I said when we talked, um, that potentially shifted how they thought about the field, you know, I'm not trying to expect everybody on everything I say to come from to change the world or anything.

Geri: 00:42:20

Again, just to repeat what Liam said for emphasis and to help for clarity. He talked about, Not to be grumbling about the day-to-day things that are going on. But to really prioritize and remember, and remind yourself every so often. About the fact that if you're in good health and the fact that you have a partner who cares about you and you care about, and potentially maybe family or children, whatever there is in your life, these are the things that are so important. Relative to other things that, may be about. People remembering something that you wrote. So he then goes on in the next bit that you'll hear and talks about the importance of then just being true to yourself, to your own values and living in the way that you want to live. And treating other people like the way you would like to be treated. And at the end of the day, you can't go far wrong and people will respect you at a personal level in terms of how you live your life and how you interact with others and treat others. So you'll hear Liam say this in his own words.

Liam: 00:43:40

Um, I think sometimes, yeah, just, um, just try to be true to yourself. Ultimately. To, to your own values. And try to live in the way that you want to live that you wish and should be treated, treat other people like the way you would like to be. I think that's, at the end of the day, you can't go far wrong and people will respect you at a personal level. In terms of how you live your life and how you interact with others and treat others.

Geri: 00:44:19

It's a really important reminder about just keeping Keeping things in perspective and, as you said, taking the time to remind ourselves about what is important.

Liam: 00:44:30

Indeed.

Geri: 00:44:32

Yeah. And on that note, I'll look at wrapping up. Is there anything that you would want to say just in closing, Liam?

Liam: 00:44:43

I've probably said more than enough.

Geri: 00:44:48

Well, thank you very much. And, Are you okay to say that you are actually recording this from hospital wearing oxygen? I'm, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Liam: 00:45:00

I've been waiting for somebody to crack in and pull me off.

Geri: 00:45:05

They've been very respectful. It worked out well given all the hiccups we had trying to connect.

Liam: 00:45:13

Yeah.

Geri: 00:45:14

So thank you.

Liam: 00:45:16

Nice to talk with you. Yeah.

Geri: 00:45:18

Thank you, Liam, and all the best.

Liam: 00:45:21

Thank you very much. Take care.

Geri: 00:45:27

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