Tina Persson shares her journey from chemistry and nearly 20 years in academia, to recruiting and then career coaching. Tina discusses the challenges she faced in academia, including struggles with energy-draining tasks and political landscapes, and how she pivoted to a career in recruitment and coaching. She emphasizes the importance of understanding natural talents, emotional intelligence, and honest communication in career development. The conversation covers valuable tips for professors on recruiting and supporting early-career researchers, the impact of AI on career skills, and the cultural differences in career transitions. Tina also highlights the significance of lifelong learning and being open to unseen opportunities, offering practical advice for academics, those seeking an academic position, and those considering a career pivot.
Overview:
00:29 Episode Introduction
03:02 Introducing Tina and her Academic Journey
10:18 Transition to Industry
12:24 Becoming a PhD Recruiter
15:25 Coaching and Career Development
25:24 Recruitment Tips for Professors
36:00 Startup Mentality in Academia
38:43 Evaluating Candidates Beyond Technical Skills
40:35 Innovative Interview Techniques
43:09 Filtering Candidates Efficiently
50:57 Cultural Differences in Recruitment
52:50 The Role of AI in Recruitment
54:25 Human-Centric Skills in Academia
01:00:13 Building a Supportive Academic Culture
01:03:23 The Importance of Career Pivoting
01:05:52 Conclusion and Contact Information
Related links
Related to Tina:
About Tina and her LinkedIn profile and Passage2Pro
PhD Career Stories Podcast and upcoming book
People: Sarah Blackford , Fritz Eckstein
Holland’s Theory of Career Choice
Transcript
Welcome to Changing Academic Life. I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is a podcast series where academics and others share their stories, provide ideas, and provoke discussions about what we can do individually and collectively to change academic life for the better. When I run workshops with, young professors, even experienced professors, one of the questions that often comes up is, how do you know how to recruit someone good? And that was my motivation for wanting to talk with Tina Perrson because she's brings together unique experience in this regard and the conversation ends up covering this and so much more. So i'm really happy to share this conversation with Tina Perrson. Tina's interesting because she worked in academia for nearly 20 years working in chemistry, and then she moved on to work in a recruitment company and created a niche for herself there and recruiting post PhD people. And now she's working as an academic career coach, where she brings together all that she's learned from her different backgrounds in both academia and recruitment. She shares really honestly, about her own career journey and the challenges she faced in academia that led her to pivot to a career in recruitment, and then the coaching. And then where she talks more about career pivots and recruitment more generally, I love the way she invites us to not just focus on job security per se, but to take a bigger lens and think instead about career security and how we can set ourselves up for that and how we as leaders can support others in their longer career trajectories. So there's lots of tips for people from all sides of the equation here. Whether you are applying for a PhD or postdoc position, or whether you are the professor on the other end who's doing the recruitment. There are lots of tips that she offers for the recruitment process. And there's also lots of good advice for people who might be thinking of pivoting out of academia. Along the way, we also touch on issues like the importance of understanding your natural talents, of emotional intelligence, of being really honest in how we communicate the realities of academic career paths and career development, on the role of AI in the recruitment process and cultural differences. As I said, there's lots there for, for all sorts of people. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Tina. Tina, thank you very much for joining me today. I was really excited to meet you and one of the reasons why I thought it could be really useful to talk was when we run workshops with academics and early career researchers, often the question that comes up again and again and again is how do you know how to employ the right people? And given your background that we're gonna hear about soon, I just thought you'd be a wonderful person to explore this issue with. So would you like to just introduce yourself?
Tina:Absolutely. And first of all, thank you for inviting me to your absolute lovely pod that I got noticed on on LinkedIn. Right. You know, you got recognized. So congratulations, uh, Geri. Uh, yeah, my background. My name is Tina Persson and I started off my career as a young woman in academia doing a PhD and with sort of an aim of going abroad, doing a postoc. And from there I, I just had one career in mind and that was to stay in academia to become a professor. So it was sort of a lot of step to go back home. Uh, that is Sweden, Lund University. And being in academia, uh, I realized very shortly that. It's not being a supervisor, trying to build a group. As a young woman with no support system around, it's very, very difficult. Mm-hmm. So I started to doubt myself, but I also found that I'm doing too many things that doesn't give me energy. So I decided to leave and that. This time, that is 2005, 2006. You know, time is runnings. 20 years ago it was very, very uncommon that if you had come so far, you were fighting to stay. Mm-hmm. But I just said no. So I pivot to say, listen, so just your
Geri:disciplinary area that you were working in?
Tina:My disciplinary area was organic chemistry.
Geri:Yeah.
Tina:In the beginning. But I transitioned to molecule biology in RNA. So at the Max Plank Institute I worked within the RNA field in the early nineties. So that was really in the beginning of RNA science. Yes. So in my lab we work with the CRISP before crisp, but with catalytic RNA ligation of RNA and some of the scientists later on work with SI and MI RNA. So I know if. You know, just to share, because I know you have many academic people here on the podcast, I attended a conference in San Francisco and I think that, uh, right six to eight Nobel Prizes, you know, that attended that virtual. Wow. They hadn't, some had got the Nobel Prize, some of them were waiting to get it, and one woman was Jennifer Dunna and she was basically in her first or second year as an assistant professor. So I remember that very, very clearly. So looking back, I realized I was sitting in a red Ferrari, but I didn't know that. So I thought, honestly, coming back to Sweden with that sort of portfolio, I would be extremely attractive and easily get funding. Um, but I couldn't be more wrong. I couldn't be more wrong. Mm, absolutely. So. Yeah,
Geri:you, and you said about you felt like you weren't getting energy. Can you unpack that a little bit more?
Tina:Oh, very good. That dissecting it, I'm so trying to just give a very short, brief background about myself. But when I started, you know, being a PhD, being a postdoc, particularly postdoc time, it was tough. It was, you know, hard competition in the lab, but it was, it fitted me. I was focused on doing science. I could go to conferences. I had great discussions, uh, in the lab that I was to discuss scientific problems. So sort of a future of, you know, being part of something very big and important and. I think now looking back, I used my sort of openness, innovation, curiosity, writing, you know, scientific articles, but I didn't have to write them for, for perfection. I was much more hands on in the lab. I was there sort of figuring out new ways. So actually getting a, an article, so coming back and I was a supervisor, suddenly I was fully responsible for pulling in the funding, which means you're sitting writing fund applications. So I was stuck applying for funding and writing articles. And it sounds maybe very strange, but I don't like to write articles, you know? So for me it's like, then it's over. So honestly, you can't be a professor to that if you're not really, you know, like to write, conceptualizing and writing and it doesn't give me energy. And that was one thing. The other one was the political system.
Geri:Hmm.
Tina:I realized very quickly that, you know, they said you have to publish. At least they said that to me as a woman, you have to publish. You have to publish work harder. But I said, it's no point because it's you anyway, saying I have to work harder. They give me the funding, so why can't you just tell me if I'm good enough or if you are interested in investing in me? But I never got that answer. So I looked around myself, Geri, and said, okay, how many women at this university has really succeeded to go where I see myself?
Geri:Mm.
Tina:And at that time, it wasn't many. And all of them were much more founded with mentors. At the university than I was. And honestly, many of them never did a postdoc. They stayed at the university, maybe did one visiting year and then come back to the lab. I stayed six years at the Max Planck and that was too many years to come back 'cause I was disconnected with the local ecosystem. Yeah. So this is course something I use in my coaching, how to start strategically a research career. Don't do it the way I did it. It doesn't work. You know, it'll be very, very hard even though there are many ways to Rome, but there are ways that you can make it smoother and easier. Mm-hmm. And this is some of my executive coaching I do today with professors, particularly young professors. So that was my natural talents, I call it. It didn't fit. And the more I worked in academia, the more sort of de-energized I got. And when you're de-energized, you are not a very good supervisor. Mm-hmm. So I wasn't very good in leading my group, but I was young, I was 35 years old. So what can we expect from such a young person to be able to lead a group with no support? It's too much. Yeah.
Geri:So it sounds like a very brave decision, especially in 2005, 2006, to actually say, no, this isn't for me.
Tina:No, it's not for me, but for me, maybe it was easy because I'm not from an academic family. So I come from a family with no academic track record and they're more involved in sales and business. So. I also think, looking back, I am a bit like this. When thing doesn't work out, I say, why not try something else? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's maybe why I was a good scientist. You know, I'm very open-minded and curious, so why not test something else? Why not go in a completely different direction trying to connect the dots differently? So I use a lot of intuition, so my feeling, if I put it up, my stomach feeling when I changed was in order for me, because it was not easy to call around and look for a job because everyone expected you to stay. It was, and I want to change and pivot completely. Okay. So I, I get into a completely different network where I learn sales and marketing because that is a skill, whatever you do in the future. It's gonna be very good to have.
Geri:Mm.
Tina:At the same time I learned that I was more interested in people maybe in science. Yeah. Again, as a woman, I was interested in people, something I really didn't know at the time being, but I know that today and the reason I like to go to Germany was that apart from doing great science, I was in Germany. I learned a language, I met new people, so that was also, you know, my curiosity about the new culture and all of that, that was important in Germany, which of course didn't get back when I came to Sweden because here people were not interested in what I've done in Germany had no interest whatsoever. For me, it was how can't you be interested in what happened with me for the six years? But I learned that, so I went into sales and marketing in the recruitment business where I could combine people interest. Sales and marketing, but I did something smart here. When I got that recruitment job, I said, I'm going to be the first PhD recruiter, so I understand PhDs that wants to do what I have done. You know, they also find it very, very hard to get a job, but I will understand the background and I can explain it and express it for companies. So that was my niche and that was the only reason I got the job, because this company could see that potential.
Geri:And so you came up with that as a niche in going and talking to the company that gave you the job? Mm-hmm. That's really interesting. That's a really great insight. At the intersection of, you know, like it Yeah. You talked about doing a complete pivot away. Yeah. But also drawing across some threads.
Tina:That's Tina Persson. This is me. I've done it so many times. I did it in science. But this is also I think, a mindset. I have trained myself. Mm-hmm. I always tell nowadays to my clients, you must learn to see the unseen opportunities. We talk about hidden jobs, that one thing, but unseen is really that you connect dots by accumulating information, connecting new information, and draw some conclusions so you can see things happening in the future. That means, what I call it, you can see around corners. So when an opportunity come, you take it because you already know that might that that might be the best option. The moment. Mm-hmm. And that have happened so many times in my life, and this is that. I tend to say I'm somehow a little bit ahead of my time, which is always for me, like I'm always working against the wind.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:You know, because when I was a first PhD career coach or coach or recruiter, that the environment didn't understand why I took that move. But after me, there are many PhD recruiters and one of my dear friends, I spoke with her today, Anna, she was the second in Sweden and she lives in Stockholm and she's still a recruiter. Mm-hmm. And I inspired her. So, so you know, being the first is hard by that, there will always be people that follow.
Geri:Mm.
Tina:Yeah. And that's how it's been with me. Yeah. I must admit. Yeah.
Geri:And it's not just the unseen opportunities, but it's the way in which you co-create the opportunity, in both seeing the potential, the unseen, I guess, and also making it something that can be seen.
Tina:That can be seen. Yeah. And that is what I call your show by doing. And for that, I need to take the first step. So being a PhD recruiter, then I learned not only sales and marketing, but I also found another gap That is the reason that I'm sitting here with you. And that is that I had this very good intention to help and support PhDs, postdoc, even professors and lecturers to transition. And I learned they can't sell themself. They can't extract their competence.
Geri:From academia, from academia into industry context.
Tina:Exactly. They talk, but no one understands and see the value And I say, you know, it's great to tell your life story in academia and all your science, just that you need to rephrase it so the company can see the value, what you offer. And that is something I had naturally, it was easier for me somehow to adapt to that, where I could see many of the, one I tried to recruit to companies and in fact, Geri, some companies called me back and gave me feedback. Tina don't send these people and they're really weird. And I said, no, they're not. It's just a different language. So, so I said, you know, I was fighting there, but I learned that. I learned, okay, I can't sell them. So it needs, they need another support. I can't give them as a recruiter. Uh, and that is slowly then you can hear moving over to. Me doing, oh, you know, I had three years in between starting my company where I said, okay, I think I need to be a career coach. I need to be a coach. Mm. Because that's the only way I, I really can help this clientele, you know, to figure out what they want to do in the life. Yeah. Beyond the academic context. And then I figure out I can do it inside. So that is another transition based on information that I gathered eight years as a recruiter and consultant manager, because I stayed, I stayed eight years in the corporate world.
Geri:And how long have you been then working as the career coach? Um, and with your own company?
Tina:That's another eight years. Another eight years. Another eight years something. Yeah.
Geri:So I, I do wanna get to actually, you know, for the professor sitting there employing people and picking good people. But if you are working with some of your PhDs who want to move into a different sector out of academia.
Tina:Mm-hmm.
Geri:How do you talk to them about communicating so that they can connect Yeah. To a non-academic audience, to
Tina:a non non-academic audience. That's a process that I call natural talents that I identify myself. It's based on, it's actually Sarah Blackford. Um, she used Holland's theory for a very analog instrument that many years now. And then I know her and I got it and I saw, oh, that's cool. And then AI came Chat GPT.
undefined:Mm-hmm.
Tina:And then I realized, Hmm, wait a minute. It's not about, we talk a lot in academia about values. They, they get too much of the value. They get too much about strength and weaknesses. You don't need to be perfect on those things because you can develop that with time. But to sell yourself, if I put it in that terminology so people understand and see the value that lies in that, you know where you're going. So if you take a look on your natural talents, that's going back to what I felt in academia. I feel I don't get energy from my job. That is, if you use Holland's theory, which is based on, you know, you can take, if you have a practical approach, hands-on approach, you're being maybe more investigative, a bit more enterprising, a bit more supportive. Now a bit more, let's say creative jobs or administrative job. You have sort of a mixture there. By knowing, looking back on what gave you energy doing in the past. Mm-hmm. You can write a simple diary. I can help my clients to translate that to actually a job field. Nice. Uh, and this is very easy to do that. And by using Chat GPT, it's just amazing because from that very positive thinking, not looking at what I don't like, you focus 100% of what gives you energy. You can learn to communicate even though you don't know the job. You can say, do you know what? I'm in academia, you know, industry much better than I do. I can tell you what gives me energy doing and based on that might be you can support me where I fit in.
undefined:Yes.
Tina:And people love to help you there. Because you not look for a job, but you still look for a job in an indirect way. And this is how I help my client to start with. And from there, we can then build both LinkedIn profiles, we can take it to, uh, a resume, a LinkedIn profile, interviews and et cetera, et cetera, building confidence.
undefined:Mm-hmm.
Tina:And this is a positive way for a critical mindset, PhD postdoc, to move into a positive mindset. Talking Yes. Positively about, yes. Yeah.
Geri:So when they're at their best, you know, like when they're really energized by their work,
Tina:where they thrive, as I say, you are thriving. And this is also what professors listening here, because we become. To, to the tips here, but this is also how they should build the group. They need a mixture of people in the team thriving differently. Yeah. Yes. So you have some sort of diversity
Geri:Yes.
Tina:In personalities, but not only in personalities, in their natural talents. Yes. Which I call drives the motivation. Yes. And this is a big mistake. They get too many of the same kind. Mm-hmm.
Geri:So, you know, you said when you had your group and you didn't like writing and the sort of the, the articles and it sounds like the trying to chase the grants and funding. Yeah. Looking back with what you know now, do you see a way that you may have been able to have used this sort of natural talents lens?
Tina:Yeah, absolutely. In building a
Geri:team where you collectively covered those bases.
Tina:Yeah, and I was not that wrong at it. It was just a coincidence here that unfortunately, the political landscape wasn't very healthy. It was very toxic environment at the time. Um. When I started, I very quickly had sort of a smaller group and I knew my strength, uh, in many ways indirectly. I, I'm, you know, I'm the one that get all the new ideas, connect things. Mm-hmm. Then there was a woman, Sophia, her name was, she was extremely good in writing and structure things. So we started to collaborate and that worked amazingly.
undefined:Mm.
Tina:One day it stopped and I have sort of a feeling that was some political power in the house disconnecting us to women. Mm. 'cause we were very successful. So if you Google Tina Persson and Sophia, you will find many articles what we did.
undefined:Mm. And
Tina:when I look back on it, I think, wow, we did that in that short time period. Really groundbreaking. Yeah. Uh, but you know, this is again, that we were strong together, but the system in academia is don't work together. You should promote yourself. Yeah. And, and this is so degenerating because that also creates researchers like PhDs and postdocs, young research being too independent, thinking about themself so they don't get this sort of team ability, you know, work collaborative in a team. Yeah. Which is the only thing companies look at, because if you can't be in a team, you know? Yes.
Geri:And it's also, I mean, as you indicated working with Sophie, it's not just additive. You bring your two pieces of what you are good at, and she brings her two pieces. There's something more that happens. There's a, there's a synergy and an extra energy boost, you know, with the collective that, um,
Tina:collective comes from that. So, I could put it this way, if anyone listening here and whether you are sitting inside academia trying to, you know, fight yourself through the academic context or. You in industry and you feel that you're stuck and you're frustrated. It might be that you haven't sort of grounded yourself in the ecosystem. Uh, and for that is what we call in industry. You need to have a strong ability in emotional intelligence, which means that building relationships, motivating people, social skills. Yeah, yeah. And ability to recruit the right people, and communicate in a right way. Yeah. Many people make their manager their enemy, and I said, it's not very smart because you have to collaborate with your manager, learn to collaborate with us. So, because no one's gonna promote you if they don't see the value of working with you. Yeah. And that is both in and at the university. Yeah.
Geri:And you want them to promote you in line with what you're energized by as well. Yeah. So how do you communicate that?
Tina:How do you communicate? Well, I can't sit here and do teaching. If you take that I'm not teaching. For me, I wasn't particularly interested, but I can be on stage to sell things. It's two different things. So I should have had a completely different job inside Academia, but I could have started to get, you know, I got my Docent and from there, most likely I should have moved into more, more external affairs, external or something like.
Geri:That's, and that's the value of, of, um, the earlier we can get a sense of what our natural talents are. Absolutely. The more we can think about what are the different possibilities that will enable those talents to to to blossom, to grow. Yeah. Yeah. It's early. Independent of the title of the role that you're in.
Tina:It's so important. Uh, I have been prepared a little bit for this podcast, so I wrote something down here. And that is that you should, when you are a professor and, and you're recruiting people, you know, it is very important that from the day you get a new PhD or new postdoc, that they start early on or you start early on to support them in the career development, whether, you know, and that's another point for the reason they have come to you. So that means that this is extremely important in an environment where you have so much of temporary positions mm-hmm. That they get an early support so you can build psychological safety. Mm-hmm. And psychological safety is there, so it's, you can be open to discuss different career trajectory. Not only that, you should stay in academia also, that it is okay to leave because it is, when you are open discussing this, you will probably succeed to retain the ones you want because they feel more secure.
undefined:Mm.
Tina:Yeah. Because the more they know about their options, the more secure they will feel and the better, more efficient people will work in your group. Yeah. And I've been coaching Geri, so many PhDs and postdocs that I would put it this way, it's absolutely impossible. They can't be efficient considering how worried they are about the future. Yes. And how little
Geri:Especially when we have so many shorter term contracts so that, yeah. So I wanna pick up on this point again about supporting, um, early careers in their ongoing career. You know, like your employment of them as being part of that career journey for them and how you can support them in the time that you have contact. But one of the questions that I get asked all the time, and I don't have a great answer always, um, is how, you know, people always struggle with recruiting the right people or good people and you, so they're always looking for tips and tricks. So given your background, both in the recruiting business and in supporting people in the coaching,
undefined:mm.
Tina:I would say,
Geri:What would you say to young professors? Yeah, young professors who are recruiting PhD students or postdocs or whatever.
Tina:Yep. It really depends where they are in their academic career. If you have young professors, they have funding, you know, limited funding, they need a really sharp strategy, you know, a sharp strategy. Uh, and there when you grow, you have more and more funding. You can be more strategic. Uh, and there is also room to fail, if I put it that way. With recruitment. Yes. When you are a young researcher, there is no room one PhD student that doesn't deliver a post. It could be the end or the beginning, you know, of your career basically. So, so there you have to be very, very cautious. But I have some certain tips. Uh, but before doing that, I'm gonna. Just frame some sort of quote that I wrote down here for all professor, whether you are young or old, uh, or you are established, not old, that's, that was translating Swedish to English that is more established professor was aside. But that is, and I, first of all, and, and I say this because I've been coaching many professor among some of the Karolinska Institute and in Germany, Max Planck, that is that professors strive for permanent jobs and, and they are afraid to tell their PhDs and post up the truth or the reality because they want to be nice and they want to offer them security. And that's the wrong start from the beginning. So I would like to put it like this, uh, it's a quote I wrote before for this podcast here. It's not about offering job security, it's about offering career security. Mm-hmm. Candidates will commit to your project if they know you're serious about helping them grow and land well afterward.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:And this is where I tell, and I'm gonna tell you what I tell postdocs and PhDs when they say, Tina, I want to do postdoc. I want to start the PhD. What professor should I choose? So Geri, what advice do you think I give them? Well, it's a very simple one. Today we have social media, we have LinkedIn. They can find a lot of information there. Yep. So I say you should go to a group where you can see the people that left the group, how they succeeded afterwards, what did they do after the post, or how many professors have that professor generated? How many people in industry has that professor generated? So if you take my postdoc dad, Fritz Eckstein at the Max Planck, I checked his list and they all in industry, apart from some, they were extremely successful in academia. So that probably was a good chance that. I would succeed as well. So when we are in these times where you have mental health issues, you can Google these information.
Geri:Mm.
Tina:You can find this information and LinkedIn and ResearchGate or other networks, you can actually check your professor. You, you look, look, look. Watch them up. Yeah. And when I tell that to professors, is this the tip you give? Yes. Wow. It's not good. No. That's why you need to be on social media to show off. This is my lab, this is my people. So they have all the names of your laboratory people, and then they can contact them and ask how is it to work in that group? This is how you show your brand. And it's not about policing all the time. It's to make them successful. Doesn't mean that you always agree with them, but you know that you have this sort of, this is what companies have learned and this is what they call talent development, talent attraction, talent recruitment, and this is coming to academia as well as really important. So for that reason, I think that is step number one. You have to think when you recruit today, okay, I'm a young researcher. What do I actually need to save my next three years? Because if you go to universities in United States, you don't have more than three years, then you must support your own salary. So you need to be extremely strategic. So I would put it that way. You have my tip one is adapt to your funding reality. So if you have three years, it's important that you are clear with, I have three years. And, we never know what happened after that. Yeah. But bring in the people that are curious, open-minded, and that can live with, that you have tight deadlines and that you need publications. 'cause that's what you're gonna tell them. I need publications, only publications that are gonna take us further. And that you hire people that you are guiding very strongly, that have the technical skills that you need. You know, maybe more hands on postdocs or PhDs that produce your science basically. This sounds weird, but this is maybe a tip you need to consider when you are a very young researcher.
Geri:So the realities of the funding and it's about the. What you need from the position.
Tina:Yeah.
Geri:Both in terms of outputs and the inputs. In terms of skills. Yeah. Yeah. And, and in that, you know, if we take your, um, supporting their, their career security, it's also talking to them and the about how those also fit and support their trajectory as well. In that. Yeah.
Tina:In this, in this case, it's harder here. You have to be clear with that. If, if you come to my lab. This is what I need from you. You know, I, I understand that some professors, it's very hard to say that I'm going to, it feels like I'm using them. Yeah. But you have to see it from two perspectives here. You need them to produce your science so you can publish that. That's honest. Yeah. And you give them an opportunity to learn your science that they can take to the next step.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:Yeah. That you need to be honest with, I have three years, so it's better that you come and we focus on what you can learn and publications and then early on start to tell them that you know, now it's one year, two years left, or one year left. What's your plan? Because you know, so you early on start with them and telling them that you know, you need to look what you are doing after, because this is also how you can use your network. Yeah. Maybe you can help them to another group. Or you start saying maybe, you know, you should look around what industry offers.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:So this is to be very open with that. You know, you have limited resources to keep them. Unfortunately, some professors, they're so afraid to lose or drop the best post docs and PhDs. So they are living on the hope so very late. They know that I can't support you, and then, you know, there's not enough time for the PhD and the poster to look around and orient themself and explore other options. Mm-hmm. So stay honest in, in, in, in this perspective.
Geri:Yeah. That honesty is really critical.
Tina:Mm.
Geri:And it still leaves open the space for that discussion within that honest framework about these are the practical constraints, what I need, um, what you can deliver. And it, there's hopefully still scope for that discussion that says, yeah. Where we have some room to make decisions or to shape what actually gets done. Yeah, absolutely. What would work towards your career trajectory, whether it's here or somewhere else?
Tina:Honestly, this discussion is not more strange than in a company, a startup. Mm-hmm. You know, if, if you go back, you know, you, you're gonna start a little company. And they say, you know, I want a permanent job in your, yeah. I can't offer that. I say, no, no. This is a startup and I, I can keep it as long as we have money in the company and people are happy to join. Mm-hmm. And now I'm coming back to what I said and framing. It's not about uh, job security, it's about career, security. Career. Yeah. Because if you go to a lab and you say, you know, God, you know, she doesn't have money or he doesn't have money, this young professor, but I will learn fantastic and amazing skills. And if I use my time wisely, collaborating, networking, I secure my career because I'm learning. So this is part of lifelong learning. So your expectation is on that level. This is where I tell people, leaving academia, do you know what? You shouldn't look for job security because that will stop you in the next five years. You should take a job where you may be risk being unemployed again in two years, but you learn critical skills, so you are building your career. Hmm. By learning new skills. Hmm. So actually job security can be a false security.
Geri:Yes.
Tina:Because you, you know, you stop learning and this is what academia could be seen at. Mm. If you have you as a professor, it's just open. You know, this is my scientific group. I'm very young. It's very new. It's like a startup.
Geri:I like that analogy of it being a startup, because it, it also reminds you that there's a sense of energy and enthusiasm about the work that you're doing because it's a startup and you don't quite know. No. But yeah, the, the contributing to potentially making something great.
Tina:Yep. Of, of course. It's the potential. Yeah. So, and that is the same, you know, what we need more of in Europe to take a risk mm-hmm. Instead of looking for the security all the time. Yeah. Yeah. And that comes back to, you know, I just take that again, that be honest as a professor when you recruit Yeah. Because if you have, you can be tough as a leader, that's good, but you have it with a big heart and that you mean that, you know, if you come here, you will learn certain things. Yeah. And that in any way can take you forward. Yeah. Yeah.
Geri:So how do, how do you actually engage in a conversation at, say a job interview with someone? Because you've got the CV where you may be able to see that yes, they do have those technical skills I need. But you also talked about, um, the emotional intelligence skills and the relationship skills and so on that, you know, I know that we're talking about for professors, but I think everyone needs in terms of the working relationships, do you have any tips for, um, people who are recruiting PhDs or postdocs about how to pull out the stories that might help you understand more of where they're coming from, from those sorts of skills? Or also what might be their more natural talents that you know, you, you may be able to sort of help develop them. Yeah.
Tina:Help them to develop them, you know? Yeah. They're usually so young when they are PhDs and postdocs, so it's always a little bit harder. But an advice that I give is that try not only to look on the technical skills
Geri:mm-hmm.
Tina:But also try to figure out what drives the motivation they have and, and future perspectives. Uh, of course if you ask standard questions, they, oh yeah, I'm gonna be a professor. But if you are on the interview saying, do you know what, um, that's not important for me. If you want to be professor, go to industry because they please you. They tell you, of course I'm gonna stay in academia, but now that's not what I'm interested in to know if you are gonna choose, because you know, many things can happen in life. I am interested in what you can offer in my lab. Mm. Yeah. So you turn around and check how many has actually read about my science. Mm. So you can ask these questions that you more figure out, okay, how much do they know about what I do and the value they think they can bring to what I do? Mm-hmm. And what if, if you want to do something different in my life, what could that be? And I would challenge professors when they recruit to have these more tricky storytelling questions where they have to use their creativity very early on. You know, where you can actually, in one interview focus on technical skills and in the next one more on innovation and creativity. So then you recruit different people and that you let them record a video, for example. Or if someone like to write, because they are good, some are good on on recording, some are good on writing, but it could be good to let them record so you get a picture of them. This is what I think, you know. Instead of having, you know, taking industry interviews to science, I think that should develop a different way of selecting the candidates. Mm-hmm. That, that's, as I see it. Yeah. I stand up. Well, that's the weakness. It doesn't make sense for a PhD in a postdoc. It is what they can offer in that set, particularly postdocs, you know? Okay. Have you read what I'm doing? What my son, what, what, what do you see? What, what value can they add in? What would you like to do? Mm, yeah.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:Particularly if you want an, a postdoc as they call them. You know, the ones that are maybe very innovative and like to be independent and all of them. It's very,
Geri:so almost sort of looking for some energy detection about when do they, what do they get excited about or, yeah. Even if they can't name it in that way because they are younger.
Tina:No, no, no, no. They can't name it. But you, you, you would figure it out by listening to them if they have, you know, or if they are a very good. Uh, as I had in my lab, extremely technical, skilled postdoc that maybe not very innovative, but can really run the experiments because particularly in natural science, you had a lot of routine experiments that needs to be done. Mm. She was absolutely fabulous doing that. Yeah. And that is also some driver was of course a drive for her. Mm-hmm. To go to the lab and, you know, do a lot of the same experiments. Yeah. And then extract the information. So, so this is also something that it's not so tricky to ask that this is how I would like to challenge the professors to do it.
Geri:Mm-hmm. I really liked also the thing about not just relying on sort of it's face-to-face interview, but just recognizing that people can shine in different ways and writing might be easier or recording a video beforehand that they can think about a bit more. So that also recognizes that not everyone is as good at performing in the moment.
Tina:No. No, they're not.
Geri:They're not. But um, there's also the challenge, you know, I know that a recent job, uh, advertisement that at the university I know attracted about 150 applications and, the challenge and another one actually multiple hundreds, I know that we wanna get down to actually being able to have these conversations and get to the storytelling. Any tips for that recruit? Absolutely. Filtering phase. It's a funnel that's, that's a really hard phase to how do you,
Tina:How I do that? I heard about that a lot as a recruiter because, you know, for me it was like organizing the cvs was not always the perfect way of doing it. I would put it this way. Today we have AI, you can use ChatGPT if you just want to organize the, the, the cv. But that's not optimal. So yeah, I helped the professor in United States and she had 150 resumes. I think, see and as I, and it's not very efficient of you to sit there so that you go back with the mail to all of them and let them record a video and not complicate it. Just why they apply what they want. You know, simp three questions and they just answer these three questions with a video. And then we to together constructed six questions so they could write an answer, only that action. And then she had only 20 left. Oh, okay. And that means that the rest, they didn't put, they didn't put the energy in replying. So how interested are you when you don't Mm take the work of recording and writing. So then she was down to 20 and 20 people, you could actually start to organize and start to call. So
Geri:do you mean out of the 150, only 20 came back?
Tina:Yeah. Yeah.
Geri:Wow. What a lot of wasted energy. 'cause that means that 130 people were just Yeah. Taking a chance and throwing out multiple CVs throwing out multi.
Tina:Yeah. That's how it is. Yeah. And we know that in industry as well. That's an interesting model. No, no, it's an industry the same. Mm. So, and then what I did as a recruiter and spend a lot of time doing is the next thing is they call them, and this is maybe also with some professors, they prefer to send emails, but you have to be careful because you can use ChatGPT. It looks really good in an email, but it's not, it's ChatGPT or DeepSeek or whatever they call it now that actually raise the email. So the best thing, you can book a Zoom meeting or short call with three questions, not more. Uh, it takes maybe 15 minutes per call and you get a very good sense of, you know, the person.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:That's worth it. That's worth it. Mm. And then you're down easily to five. Mm-hmm.
Geri:And then you can bring in those last Yeah. Pool of candidates for the face, face-to-face and the lab visits and things.
Tina:Yeah. Mm, so, so, so this is something, and I talk with my good friend, Ana, when she's recruiting. Now she's working in an isolated field, so she says, I know many of the clients, but she also emphasized the importance of, of talking and listening and see people, particularly in the time where you can basically use ChatGPT. So even though you are writing a question, they will start to use ChatGPT. So it looks really good, but it's not the person that actually constructed the answer.
Geri:Yeah. Well that's interesting the way that ChatGPT, and equivalent tools are challenging a lot of our processes and procedures.
Tina:Yeah.
Geri:And just the nature of scientific work. But then that's another, yeah, that's another topic. Whole issue. Yeah.
Tina:Yeah. So I would put it this way, that you should deep dive in interviews. And go beyond the skills. And with that I was like, you know, explore their why. Mm-hmm. How they think about the future, what kind of team environment they would thrive in. And you know, are they looking for a stepping stone or a growth? You know, is this a stepping stone for an academic career or what kind of stepping stone is it?
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:Yeah. This is, you know, digging a little bit deeper in the interview. Yeah.
Geri:Yeah. Any particular tips on how to explore those questions with people? Like how do you explore their why, what, what sort of questions might you ask them?
Tina:Yeah. In academia it is sort of, if it's a PhD position, it's a standard questions. You know, what do you hope to learn? Mm-hmm. From a PhD and what are you gonna do with those learnings? Have they thought about it? It seems to be a simple question, but it's not.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:Many start the PhD because it's a logical step after Master's. Yes. Yeah. And they don't get the job after the master, so they start, and that's perfectly fine. But you know, if they say, yeah, you know, see if they did it to be honest and it. Yeah, I, I don't know. I just applied. I thought the topic was good. Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm. But what do you know about my topic then? Mm-hmm. I have a very, you gave a very good idea how much they actually know.
Geri:Mm.
Tina:And I can share with you, Geri, when I applied for postdoc for Fritz Eckstein, I didn't know what he was doing. So Fritz called me and asked these questions, say, I really don't know, but I know one thing. I don't want to do organic chemistry, but I want to go lab where the professor know organic chemistry and know how to transition to molecule biology. That was the only thing I knew Fritz said, well, that's the right place though. But I didn't know his science, you know, I learned it when I came, but mm-hmm. That could be an explanation. Mm-hmm. So it doesn't mean that they have to be an expert, but understand the why, you know? Yeah. What do you hope to learn from a PhD? What was the reason for you to apply for this particular position? What do you hope to do after your PhD? Just to hear how the answer.
Geri:Mm-hmm. And that points to the importance of honesty on both sides. Yeah. Like, you know, as you said before, you can give the answers that people Yeah. That you think they expect to hear or that might Yeah. Get you the job, but then you've gotta get in and do the job. And if you've lied or if you've misrepresented what you care about or what your why is, and there is a basic mismatch. Yeah. That's. It's scary. This is not a very wise decision.
Tina:No, it's not wise. And this is where I coach my Yeah. PhD for a job in industry. They are sitting googling what the perfect answer is. And I say it's not a very good start because that is not you. You have to be honest. You must say. Well, I don't know. Or you can say, oh, that's a good question. I have no clue actually. And you know, do you know what? I just applied, I applied for so many jobs, so, uh, and I applied, but I'm so happy to be invited. And before the interview I checked your company. That's perfectly fine. It just shows that you had high activity and didn't really have time to check all the job ads.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:It's not a single person, they wouldn't understand that. But it is about, you know, being honest about why you do it. And, but that is also what professors then need to have in mind to have fun. So if they say, do you know what applied for 50 academic jobs? You are one of them, but I'm desperate. I want to do a PhD because of, you know, yes. That's also way of standing out, you know?
Geri:Do you see any differences, you know, you talked about, um, coaching or working with people in different countries. Do you see any differences, particularly across countries?
Tina:Oh yeah, it's big culture differences. Yeah. Europe, it has differences between the, the countries. I would say, uh, United States is different, even though the Western world, I would say is very similar. But then you have the big continent, India, you know, and you have the Asian world is very, very different. How you perceive, you know, and how you want to present yourself. Mm. Also, how you want to, you know, be maybe led and, and how you phrase and that is closely connected to a topic that we need to discuss more in the future maybe. And that is the title. In some countries like Sweden, the title is not important. It can be disadvantage. You can use your title, which you mean like doctor, doctor. I have doctor on my LinkedIn and when I'm in Sweden, they comment that every time and I say I have it because I work internationally. Yeah, okay. They say, but if it was so that I wanted to brand myself and look for a job in Sweden, it absolutely necessary I remove the title.
Geri:Okay.
Tina:Yeah. And this is important when I career coach people in Sweden that could you please stop talking about your title? It's not an advantage, you know, here you go in and you need to be one in the team. And it doesn't matter what title you have, your expertise you have, if people don't want to work with you, you will not move forward. Yeah. So forget your title at the moment. Yeah. You have to to show it differently. Mm-hmm. Whereas you go to Germany, title is no problem, France. No problem. So you sort of, there you need it, but it's even more important in India.
Geri:Mm. A title.
Tina:A title. Yeah. So, so, so there we have differences in, in the coaching and how we present ourself. Mm-hmm. But I think if you look in the future and now coming to something that I think also academia are going to be very important, but we haven't discussed so much about, and that is that when we introduce AI In both science or in career coaching or in industry, I think it was McKinsey or PWC They found a study. Uh, they did a study where they could show that it took very young consultancies and older ones experienced one. And when allowed to use AI, the gap in skill and knowledge became always equal.
Geri:Mm mm
Tina:That means that you can, with the right use of AI compensate. With that said means that you can have a PhD title, you can have an ex high exam from the academic world, but since people can use AI, they can very well start to compensate. Mm-hmm. So PhDs need to use this skills differently. And this is also what I introduced to my coaching, you know, be more critical mindset.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:Analyzing, connecting the dots, coming from a different perspective there. And that is what we call transferable skills.
Geri:Mm-hmm. That's interesting about the different challenges now that AI is both leveling the, leveling the field a bit. Yeah. And also making different skills, um, more important.
Tina:Yeah. It is human skills. It's the human skills. And I say we go from, with the help of AI, our human skills.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:Gonna be more important than ever. Mm-hmm. And that is what we are not training in academia.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:Yeah. So here we also have is a gap. Uh, so human-centric skills. Mm-hmm. It's gonna be very, very important to develop.
Geri:I totally agree. So important. Um, because human-centric skills are at the core of what you said about once you've employed your PhD student or your postdoc, the focus then on how do you work with them to plan and manage their career path so that this is about secure, um, career. You know, like helping them learn and develop. Yeah. So that, that needs skills to know how to have that conversation very early. Very early, and work out what's learning and development for this person and where do they wanna go to.
Tina:And you know, something. I discussed with some of my clients that they say, you know, I have a post that dreaming of an academic career.
Geri:Mm.
Tina:And you know, there could be many reasons behind it. It could be family reasons, it could be status reasons. It could be that they have been dreaming of it like me, you know, and then, you know, but he, it's no why this person got to be able to perform an academic career, at least not in this country, not this institute. Because that's simple, not those skills, you know? Mm-hmm. Because a successful professor today, they need a, you know, human centric skills. Yes. But they need basically to run their own company, you know, they need to be very enterprising. And enterprising contact that I'm able to network and connect with people and to understand where is the world going? Where is the next funding opportunity? And if, if you don't have that sort of, then it will be very challenging. But you can still stay in academia, but at another level maybe.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:Yeah. Yeah. Or you just say, no, you better go somewhere else. Maybe there's a staff position for you or you, you decide for something else. Mm-hmm. These discussions, I know many professors have a hard time to take, you know, to, to tell them that, you know, no, it's an end here.
Geri:So that's a different form of honesty. That's, yeah. Challenging.
Tina:It's, yeah, it's, and as a career coach, coach, I've been there many times myself, I have to phrase it differently, but it's, you know, it's really hard discussions. Mm-hmm.
Geri:But it is a gift to be able to have that discussion well with people. 'cause it's not about, you are not good for this, but there are places that are gonna be a better, what, you know, where it's gonna be a better match for your natural talents.
Tina:Yeah, yeah, exactly. A better match for you. Mm-hmm. It's about matching. Yeah. And I, you know, in the future, that's gonna be even more important even for companies.
Geri:Mm.
Tina:Because they, they are transforming so quickly now. So you can be very well in one. Position for quite a while, and then suddenly it's not there any longer. Mm-hmm. And you have to pivot somewhere completely else. Yeah. We call it upskilling and transformation.
Geri:Yeah. I know. The pivoting is going to be all the more important even within, even when you are in supposedly a secure position. Yes, of course.
Tina:Secure position. Yeah.
Geri:The, the pivoting in how you interpret that and play it out. I mean, even what we see now with people in, you know, people who are lecturing courses in universities, having to rethink what does it mean to lecture? What does it mean to learn? What does it mean to assess learning when people have access to these, you know, oh yeah. ChatGPT and tools related tools.
Tina:I just say, I, I, I say I am a career coach, leadership coach, call me, whatever. And I gave, uh, a seminar for online for people, career coaches in Singapore, and they said, you know, but Tina. You talk about AI, you know, because I give it a seminar about how to use AI as your career ally, as a career coach to support your client. And, and I discussed it, and it's a lot about natural talents. And so, but there must be a risk, Tina, that we, we are not needed in the future. And my, my logical answer, of course. Yeah. Yeah. It could very well be. But that's a fact. We can't change a fact. It's more how we orient ourself, but honestly, we've been there before. Hmm. It's been in UK when spinning Jenny came. Yes. And people are, we are never gonna get a job. But the fact was that spinning jenny generated more jobs. Yeah. Yeah. So it could be that I'm not the career coach in the future. I might be something else, but you know, we need to go hand in hand with, with the technology sort of, and, and, and if you're open-minded, you, you will find a new path.
Geri:This goes back to your unseen opportunities. Yes. That you said at the very beginning and about having agency and helping to shape and create those as. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so it does paint a very interesting, exciting, challenging picture of careers in the future that we're always going to be challenged and need to reinvent, whether it's changing from a limited contract to another limited contract or even within a role. Um, and that we need to look out for those personal skills that people have and, and their natural talents and how we can be mutually beneficial. Hmm. Yeah. So this has been really interesting and stimulating. Tina, are there any things that we've not talked about that you think would be important just around that?
Tina:Yeah, I have something I like to challenge the professors with. I am quite sure some professors already do it, but they do it in industry. And that is that when you are gonna recruit people, invite your team into the process. So let the team evaluate the people, I think, you know, because you know they're gonna work in a team. Yeah. So, and, and that if you have a well-functioning team, they like to work with you for a reason. They can help you in the process. And also that I know, and I like to challenge some, uh, you know, professors that help your team to attract talents by allowing them to be on social media, because it is, as I wrote, build a culture in your group that attracts talents. Then you don't have to advertise or you, maybe if you advertise, you get the ones you want because that is word spread today. So if your former PhDs and postdocs are thriving afterlife and say they felt seen and supported, you will never struggle to recruit again.
Geri:Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is really interesting too, that giving to people and that the, like, it continues to give on in a way. And that's, that's about building culture as well because they carry forward that same attitude of care and helping people learn and develop. Yeah.
Tina:And as a professor, you, when the people are leaving your group, you grow with them.
Geri:Mm-hmm.
Tina:So they will be your next generation collaborators and et cetera. Yes. This is what really, you know, some greater professors that I know that I admire, that is a system they are using a lot. So they get a referral system, alumni system. Yeah. Supporting them.
Geri:Yeah. And again, that comes back to the emotional intelligence skills, the relationship skills that as you said, we are not so good in academia at actually helping people develop, and yet they're, they're core to building your research group in which people can thrive and, um, yeah. Helping them with their career journeys. Yeah.
Tina:It would change a lot in academia if they could get that sort of culture. Yeah. I put it that way. Yeah, it would happen a lot. Yeah. It's much more innovation going on, uh, in academia than it is today. Mm-hmm. Because I know, I know there's huge mental health problems, not only among PhDs and postdocs, but also among professors and lecturers.
Geri:Yes, yes. Yeah. And our culture and, and you know, the systemic issues that you talked about, as well as the local culture that people are experiencing. Big contributors to that.
Tina:Mm-hmm. Mm. So if someone is listening to this and I say, you know, maybe I should go, but I'm a professor, it's not possible. Yes. It's, I know it. It is possible to pivot. It's never too late. Yes, yes. Never too late. Yeah, it's possible.
Geri:And you're paying a cost either way, aren't you? Yes. Like if you stay just because you think you ought to, or it's too scary to pivot and you are in that de-energized zone, what a cost.
Tina:It's a huge cost, uh, emotionally, and it's a cost on your health. And, and sort of, as you know, we have one life. So, and you don't know it is about the unseen, so it's just a decision you took. It doesn't mean you can't come back in a different shape. Mm-hmm. I, it, it, you know, I'm contributing with my why in academia in a different way. Yes. So, so it's sort of coming back, but I'm still on the periphery. I realize that. Yeah. So, so I think, but I also understand because if you leave, it's like leaving. I can see some similarities when I worked as recruiter, 2000, well now let's see, 2006, 2007, around there, I'm not remember any longer, but we had AstraZeneca, uh, Lund in, in Sweden, and they had fused, it was Astra then Zeneca in UK and they decided to close the site in Lund. You know, it was just 700 researchers, I think it was, and everyone, you know, they thought, oh no, it's gonna be awful. But afterwards, it just. They said, you know, it was really good because so many good things came out of it. But this is to sort of have the mindset also that I understand if you have been working in a company or in a culture like academia, it's a culture. It is like leaving a family. And we have to be aware of, this is psychology. If you leave a family like academia, uh, I was like, it's like people gonna cite, you can't do it. They're gonna tell you it's gonna be awful, it's gonna be terrible, and they will do everything they can to pull you back to the family. But that's the moment you have to say, do you know I love you, but it's time for me to do something else.
Geri:Yeah. And I, I think that's a lovely point to finish on, that you can still connect to your why Yeah. And bring that through, and that you can still use your natural talents Yes. In different ways, in different domains, in different career paths. Yes. Yes, you can. Oh, thank you, Tina. This has been really, really interesting. And if people wanted to find out more about what you offer and that, where would you point them to?
Tina:I would point them either to my mail that's [email protected] or to my web page, uh, passage to pro.com. Mm-hmm. You find me also on LinkedIn, so it's just to connect with Tina Persson. Yeah, yeah. And reach out to me.
Geri:I like the passage to pro because that does imply that the pivoting isn't just a moment to another moment. It's a journey.
Tina:It's a journey. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I actually got people saying, wait, why? Why do you say Passage to pro? Because you're never pro. Hmm. Yeah.
Geri:Cause it's always this ongoing.
Tina:Yeah, it's ongoing.
Geri:Yeah. Lifelong learning. Thank you very much, Tina.
Tina:Thank you Geri, for inviting me. And it's been absolutely lovely to be invited to chat and thank you for this amazing talk with you. It was really, really comfortable and interesting, uh, talking with you. Great.
Geri:Thank you. You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related links for this podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com. You can also subscribe to Changing Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify. And I'm really hoping that we can widen the conversation about how we can do academia differently. And you can contribute to this by rating the podcast and also giving feedback. And if something connected with you, please consider sharing this podcast with your colleagues. Together we can make change happen.