Vikki Wright on career transitions, ADHD, and learning to manage yourself (CAL116, S6E10)

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life. I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is a podcast series where academics and others share their stories, provide ideas and provoke discussions about what we can do individually and collectively to change academic life for the better. Whether you're considering a teaching focused career path. Or looking to move on from academia. Or dealing with ADHD or with perfectionism and procrastination. Or if you're trying to be a better supervisor, Or you're just wanting to take more control of your own life then I think you'll really love this conversation. Vikki Wright is the founding director of PhD Life Coach. And offers professional coaching and training to help PhD students and academics, reduce their overwhelm, make progress and enjoy work and life. She also hosts the PhD life coach podcast. Up until 2022 though. Vikki was a full professor of higher education at the University of Birmingham in the UK with a research background in sport and exercise sciences. In this engaging conversation, Vikki shares her unique career journey where she started off in a research focused track. Then shifted to more of a teaching focus And then later on, on the basis of a group coaching experience, She retrained as a life coach. A recurring theme in all that Vikki shares is about the importance of self-awareness and following your strengths. We see this as she shares anecdotes from the pandemic and her own personal struggles with ADHD. And she highlights the importance of self-compassion, curiosity and really having balanced, realistic ambitions. These are some key mindset aspects of learning how to manage yourself, or she talks about in some programs that she offers how to be your own best boss. Towards the end of the conversation Vikki also shares with us a very practical tool of role-based time blocking And if you wanted to see more of what she offers, I can point you to her website which is www dot thePhDlifecoach, all one word, dot com. Where you can find links to her podcast and to her be your own best boss course. She also runs an online community for PhD students and academics call the Membership. And this is really timely because applications for the next membership opens end of January, 2025. You can sign up on that website page for the waitlist. So hope you enjoy this conversation with Vikki Wright I'm really excited to have this conversation with you, Vikki, because I think there's going to be so much in it for people. And one of the reasons why it'll be really interesting to talk to you is that you have an interesting career journey. Can you tell us a little bit of your background?

Vikki: 00:03:27

Yes, of course. Thank you so much for having me here today. So I. Went to university at 18, as most people do. And I never left that university until I was a full professor 25 years later, I think it was. Um, so I went through the same institution from beginning to end. Did my undergraduate, went straight into a PhD, got offered a postdoc and kind of went through from there. And the first big transition was when I realized after about 10 years postdoc, I guess, that I didn't really love research anymore, which is a bit of a challenge at a research intensive, big university. And I thought it might be the end of my academic career. And, um, I chatted with some wonderful mentors who said, no, we need people who love teaching. We need people who want to do leadership on that side of things. And thankfully at that stage, my university had a track all the way through to full professor on teaching focused.

Geri: 00:04:32

Do you want to say what your research area was that you ended up deciding you didn't really like?

Vikki: 00:04:37

Yeah, no, absolutely. So I did a sport science degree, sport and exercise sciences. My PhD was looking at how stress affects immune function and how exercise affects immune function. And I loved it. Don't get me wrong. It's a fascinating topic area. Yeah. And I really loved supporting my PhD students and all that side of it. But I had realized that in order to answer the questions I wanted to answer, I was going to have to get down and immunology of it. Um, I didn't want to be doing more cross sectional studies, looking at how this measure of stress measures to some basic measure of immune function. And I actually went back and did a postgraduate qualification in immunology and infection after my PhD in a kind of vague attempt to like retrain myself into that hardcore immunology. And I just didn't love the actual doing of that research. I didn't enjoy being in a laboratory, particularly I didn't enjoy the kind of careful methodicalness of it and the making bits of kit work that didn't work and all that sort of stuff.

Geri: 00:05:44

But you thought you would, obviously, to actually choose to do another degree, another sort of, um, study program in that.

Vikki: 00:05:53

Did I think I would love it? I don't know that I thought about that. I think I thought I needed it. I think I thought that in order to answer the questions that I wanted to, it was one of those decisions that was driven more by sort of My goals than by a kind of understanding of myself at that stage I think I think if I'd stopped and thought about what gave me energy and what I yeah Good at naturally and what I like spending time doing I would have realized So careful and methodical is probably not it but Yeah, I don't recall thinking about that much. It was more, right, if I'm going to do this, I need to do it properly. I need to know how to do this. And I love learning. So doing the course was great. Um, but I was getting to a stage where I was procrastinating writing grants, not because I don't like, I actually really like writing grants. I'm a bit of a weirdo. Um, I just didn't want to think about the fact that I would If I got that grant, then I would definitely be doing this research in four years time. And it was like, that's not a good sign. That's not a good sign. Because the worry is you might say,

Geri: 00:07:06

Writing a grant and submitting it, praying that it doesn't get funded.

Vikki: 00:07:10

I like writing about it. I just don't want to do it.

Geri: 00:07:14

That is a good warning sign.

Vikki: 00:07:16

That was a good warning sign and thankfully that was one I actually listened to and I got some good advice from people that there would be careers in academia that didn't have to involve being a like superstar researcher.

Geri: 00:07:30

Which is amazing isn't it because there aren't many universities yet I don't think that really value a teaching path and provide people career prospects.

Vikki: 00:07:45

Yeah. And this was 10 years ago, right? So this is, this is not even now. This was, so this is the University of Birmingham in the UK. And it was one of the things that I think they do really, really well. They've had a path to professor for quite a long time at that stage. And then about nine years ago, they introduced a Reader qualification. So at the time there was, it was lecturer, senior lecturer, reader, then full professor. And they didn't used to have the reader promotion on teaching focus. You had to go straight from senior lecturer to professor. So it was a route, but it was a big jump. And just about the time that I was deciding that I wanted to go that way, they introduced that interim, um, promotion, which was super useful as a kind of structured career goal and things. And yeah, they were brilliant. So it took into account, um, not only your own teaching practice, but contributions to pedagogic literature in some places, um, teaching leadership within your institution. So the sort of more organizational management side of it. And also then kind of leadership at a national and international level so we're sharing good practice within your discipline, or, you know, across more widely than that. So that was what I ended up doing for, for the rest of that academic bit of my career. As I say, made full professor during the pandemic, which was, yeah, that was a vibe, get finding that out when I was on my own in a house.

Geri: 00:09:17

So the champagne celebration on your own.

Vikki: 00:09:21

My friend, so one of my best friends, Helen, um, cause this was right, this was like March 2020. Um, one of my best friends, Helen came round and put a half miniature size bottle of champagne on my front door, retreated to the end of my drive. Where she had one of those party poppers and sort of yelled, congratulations to them, did a party popper. And I sort of waved and took my, my mini bottle of champagne and retreated in door.

Geri: 00:09:47

But that's still lovely, isn't it? That, that someone actually cared and that small gesture that you still like just looking at your face and, it was special.

Vikki: 00:09:58

Oh, 100%. I've still got the mini bottle upstairs. Um, so yeah, and I was doing that. And then. Then it was the pandemic and I was head of education for my department. So I was overseeing all the postgraduate programs, all the undergraduate programs, um, which as you can imagine, we had, we had clinical programs and we have a physiotherapy, um, unit in our, in our department. And so that was a whole thing, keeping that running through the isolations and everything, as you can imagine. Um, and then we kind of came out the other side of that to some extent, at least. back to sort of normal. And I was so like, okay, what's next? Because that was like, head down emergency measures, right? There was no time to think about career planning at that stage. It was just, let's get the department through this. And it was like, okay, I'm full professor. That was my goal. That's what I've been working towards all this time. Um, what now? And I was kind of on a trajectory to do the senior education role. So I probably would have gone for like director of education for my college and then look at like pro vice chancellor for education or something like that. That was kind of, I think what people expected of me. I think I was for good and bad. I was seen as quite ambitious and Yeah, and then I was like, I don't want to do those things. These jobs don't actually appeal anymore. Um, and at the same time, I'd been having coaching of my own in a group setting and finding it absolutely transformational and beginning to think, Oh my goodness, the PhD students and other academics need this. And so I trained as a coach alongside my job and Not really with the intention of doing it full time. Um, but because I thought it would be really useful and interesting that I could use it within my work. And yeah, the more I thought about the coaching, the more I wanted to spend all my time on that. And. The pragmatic thing to do would probably have been to just tootle around my academic job, keep it ticking over, take home my professorial pay, not get too stressed out about anything and do some coaching on the side. I'm not very good at that. I'm not very good at not kind of driving towards something. So yeah, my personal life collided with my real life and I met a wonderful man who said that he could make sure I didn't die while I was setting up my own business. Um, he would feed me and all that. And so it sort of, opportunity conspired to make it possible for me to just go all in pretty much immediately, which is what I did two years ago.

Geri: 00:12:50

Brilliant. So I want to come to that in a tick, but I'm really curious about the way you talked about that pandemic period and your role in the education and all of the extreme pivots that everyone had to make. I think that was sort of the area in universities that was most under pressure. How did you come out of that? Was it sort of like burned out and flat or how did you manage looking after yourself during that time?

Vikki: 00:13:21

That, yes. How did I manage looking after myself? Well, to contextualize, I was living on my own. So I went nearly three months without touching another human being at the beginning of the pandemic. Um, while at the same time trying to keep all this stuff afloat. And it was really hard. And this is what's led on, I think, to a lot of the coaching stuff that I do now, because I was trying to balance continuing. to ensure our students had access to the courses that they had signed up for and that they'd expected and that they'd paid for and all of that stuff with also all these really conflicting needs that the staff had in terms of what was realistic to ask them to deliver under the circumstances they were experiencing, you know, at home with their kids and often sick family members and getting sick themselves and whatever, and Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, that was really hard. That was a really difficult balance. And I spent an awful lot of that time beating myself up. A lot, I think it's fair to say. Because I just felt like I was letting everyone down. Um, you know, the students wanted more than we could offer. The staff were thinking that I was asking for more than was reasonable from them. Because of all of that, I was struggling to stay ahead of myself. I have tendencies towards ADHD. I'm not diagnosed, but I kind of head that way. Um, you know, I was regularly asking people for things with not very much notice because, partly because the university was, like all universities was making up as it went along, I was getting stuff at last minute. I was then not on top of things as much as I would want to be and then asking up people for things in a hurry and feeling terribly bad about it. I remember being in one meeting and I can't remember what it was that I said that they needed to do. And A member of staff, who can be a little bit grumpy, but he's a lovely, lovely fella, um, just said it would have been nice to have been consulted on this before the decision was made. I was just literally like

Geri: 00:15:35

Just to interject because you can't see. At this point. Vikki does a very animated mime of how she responded.

Vikki: 00:15:45

Ha ha ha ha ha! Stittity! So that was sort of like That was a real, like, he just sat there, and he was absolutely shocked! He was just like, I'm doing my best, okay? So,

Geri: 00:16:04

So just a total, like, that was the straw that broke, that broke you.

Vikki: 00:16:11

It really was. And so I think I, I don't know, I think I have a, I was going to say inherent laziness, that is not true, and I've got to stop speaking like that. Like that. I have I can't drive myself into the ground. My brain gets distracted and I enjoy doing too many other things. And so I think what saved me was that I have a lot of hobbies and a lot of things I'm interested in. And so whilst work was very much heading towards burnout, I had enough protectives, even when I was locked away like that. Mm-hmm. My various clubs and things had online things going on and stuff. I had enough other protective things that kept me on the right side of Broken Yeah, yeah. But I was definitely very, very exhausted afterwards and my university were wonderful once I kind of came to the end of my tenure as head of education. They gave me a year where I didn't have any major admin roles. So I was just teaching my staff and doing bits and pieces and recovering. So they were wonderful. I repaid them by leaving.

Geri: 00:17:22

That's really wonderful that the university, recognized and valued that and gave you that space. Yeah, because it is time to recover and just decompress a bit. So I'm curious then, what was the trigger for going into coaching for yourself?

Vikki: 00:17:38

Well, it actually came about because of a random conversation with a gorgeous friend of mine. So a guy called Dr. Alex Conner, who worked in the medical school at the time at the university, um, he very openly has ADHD. He does a lot of advocacy work in ADHD and him and I were good buddies for a long time. And we were having coffee together after the pandemic had sort of slightly settled back when we were actually allowed to see each other. And yeah. I can't remember what we were talking about, but um, he was just like, so anyway, when were you diagnosed? And I was like, hmm, diagnosed, what now? What are we doing? And he was mortified because he was like, I never diagnosed, I never, it's one of my things, even if I suspect. He's like, I just had no idea, you didn't know.

Geri: 00:18:24

And did you know before he said that? Did you have an inkling before he said that?

Vikki: 00:18:28

No, I just, No, I just thought I was, Enthusiastic and useless. Kind of something that sits in between those two things. Um, and I'm still not, I'm mostly not, this is awful. I'm not diagnosed because I got, um, got referred for diagnosis, um, and got put on a list, and then they asked me to set up a consultation and I never got around to emailing them. And so after a year I got discharged, which in my mind should be a diagnosis. There we are. Anyway, I'm mostly on the thing at the moment that actually an enormous amount of self compassion and support at home has meant that the symptoms are not Impacting my life in any terrible way at the moment, so I've decided that at the moment I'm good. But, but that was where it really started, him saying that, and me being like, oh my goodness, I wonder. And then I started listening to a podcast that I would recommend to anybody who thinks they might have ADHD, called I Have ADHD. Um, By a coach in the U. S. called Kristen Carder. Um, and it was just brilliant. And I just, from the off, I just, I like, consumed this podcast. And she had a group coaching program called Focused for adults with ADHD. And After quite a bit of umming and uhring, because it was, you know, it's not super cheap, um, I decided I'd go for it. And yeah, it was just transformational. Sitting in these webinars, watching her coach other people who were saying things that were like my brain out loud, was just amazing. And, you know, obviously the times I got coached, Incredible. But just hearing other people experiencing the same things, and it not having to mean that They needed to fix themselves or be better or find a new planner that would make it all okay or whatever.

Geri: 00:20:32

Which is often the recommendation.

Vikki: 00:20:34

I mean, seriously, yeah, I, that's, you know, this will be the year I'll stick to this, this will be the year I do that or whatever had always been the thing. And yeah, that was the one that just, and I'd had coaching before, but it never, ever help because. I would leave a session super enthusiastic with a plan. You know, we'd gone through the models of GROW model and all of this. I've gone through my options. I've made a decision. I knew why I was doing it, blah, blah, blah. I'd go off. I'd come back the next time. And they'd be like, so did you do any of those things? I'd be like, no, I didn't do any of them. Why not? And I'm like, I have no idea. Um, and so they'd get cross with me. I'd get embarrassed. And. Yeah. So I'd never found coaching useful before that. And then suddenly I found this environment where it was like, Oh, this all just makes sense. Just makes sense. And that made so much difference. That was the point where I decided that I wanted to train and that form of coaching and, and do that sort of work.

Geri: 00:21:37

Make that difference for other people.

Vikki: 00:21:39

Yeah. A hundred percent. And not just people who've got ADHD or other neurodivergences. The stuff I was seeing. It was so translatable to so many people with academia. There is so much, as you know, where are the things that we're telling ourselves are just making it so much harder than it needs to be. Um, and that's not to blame ourselves. It's inherently a challenging system and a, you know, a competitive environment and all that stuff, but we can end up making it so much harder than it needs to be. That was what I learned really.

Geri: 00:22:18

So the other coaching program, and you talked about you'd gone through the GROW process and for people who don't know, it stands for Goal, Reality, the Options, and then having the Will to change or motivating Why you want to change. And so you got to all of that and you went away with your option, and you just said you didn't come back. What do you think was going on there for you with that? What was it about that approach that didn't work?

Vikki: 00:22:43

I want to be careful because I want it, you know, different coaches work for different people. Right. And I'm, this was just a one that it didn't work for me. And I think the reason it didn't work for me was because the main things we talked about is what we were going to do. And I am, there's one thing I'm not short of it's ideas, plans, ways to get there, the exact steps I need to take. And so I could say all the right things there in the session. I could even believe. I've got a plan now in the session. I could, you know, but I didn't understand why I wouldn't then follow through. And not only did I not understand it, I judged myself hugely for it. So for the fact that I'd come up with these plans, they sounded so reasonable. They sounded like I, and I genuinely wanted to do them and I couldn't understand why I didn't, and that annoyed me because not understanding things just frustrates me. And. I made it mean that I was just useless and lazy and ill disciplined and all that good stuff. And for me, the issue was that we weren't getting to why I wasn't taking those actions And I know that's not something that's inherent to particular style of coaching. So, you know, then there may be other people who work with these models who would've got to that stuff. But for me, this notion of. Partly the why being to do with the ADHD, but the why also being to do with all the thoughts and emotions that I was having about those actions and us not really getting to that meant that nothing really changed. Whereas The Focused Coaching Program uses a model called the Self Coaching Model which originally came out of the Life Coach School which Brooke Castillo, it is just, she, she says it too, it's a smushed up version of CBT for a coaching environment essentially, but it really looks at what thoughts and feelings you're having and how that drives your actions. And it was something, I don't know, people had probably told me stuff like that before, but it was something that I was suddenly very able to go, Oh, right. And for me, it was around things like the reason why I was making unrealistic goals. Because I truly believe my thoughts were absolutely that I should be able to do it all. It was a massive problem if I couldn't do it all. Um, and so then, I kind of already was feeling overwhelmed and when I was feeling overwhelmed, I would procrastinate and I couldn't work out why I was procrastinating because nobody had ever really talked to me about procrastination being emotion avoidance. Procrastination was always presented as a kind of, well, you just need to decide what you're doing and then stick to it kind of thing. Um, whereas, I was just getting into such a sort of an overwhelm of wanting to do all the things and feeling like I had to do all the things and most of them were of my own volition. This isn't me being a kind of agreeing to everybody else's stuff, this is a me going I could do that and we should do this too kind of thing. Um, so it was all of my own creation. And then procrastinating to avoid those feelings of sort of overwhelm and self judgment and whatnot.

Geri: 00:26:28

And were these to do with, sort of, actions to do with your role as professor and education strand that you're working on, or?

Vikki: 00:26:36

I would, to paint the picture, I would be somebody who, you know, fully believed that I should be able to be a senior leader at the university doing all of that stuff. well on time ahead of myself, consulting everybody, doing all of those things. And I should be a highly effective teacher. And I should be doing pedagogical research, which by the way, I'm not trained in, in any level. You know, I taught myself on a sabbatical, how to do qualitative research. Um, I should be able to do all of that whilst also Paddleboarding every week, going to my circus class every week, seeing my friends several times a week, working on adventure races on holidays, competing in her adventure races on the weekends, definitely going home to see my parents at least once a month, dating regularly, um, art. Oh, and writing the novel that I has partway through. And I truly believe that the reason I couldn't fit that all in was because I hadn't found the right. time management strategy. And part of me still does.

Geri: 00:27:42

I'm exhausted listening to that list.

Vikki: 00:27:45

But that was genuinely, I mean, if I showed you my photos from 2019 before the world shut down, yeah, that that was literally, I was doing all of those things regularly.

Geri: 00:27:57

So, the shoulds though, you know, how do you reflect on the shoulds now? Because obviously you can hear the shoulds yourself because, looking back.

Vikki: 00:28:06

Yeah, I think this is where I'm sometimes slightly different from other people I speak to. My shoulds were very self driven. They were very, I believed, you know, I grew up as a somewhat gifted kid and whatnot. Um, and so everything came quite easily. I was best in my class and did all of that stuff. And so it was very much, you know, I have that slightly naive belief that if I put my mind to it, I could be a professional most things. Not a singer, definitely not a singer. But beyond that, you know. I feel like I should be able to do those things. And so for me it wasn't so much other people, my expectations of myself have always been inordinately higher than anybody else's expectations of me. So, so yeah, in my case very much internal, I just should be able to fit this in and life will be no fun if it's not, if I don't fit them all in. Whereas when I'm working with my clients, I often hear a lot more, you know, my supervisor thinks I should be able to do all of this, or my boss does, or my parents do, or whoever.

Geri: 00:29:19

The blessing and the curse of actually being talented and being able to do those things, or being gifted.

Vikki: 00:29:26

Well, one of the things I often talk with my clients about now, that was a real kind of transformational moment for me was thinking about a sort of analogy between all the foods you like. And a meal, right? Because I believed that if I couldn't do all the things that I wanted to do, that it would somehow be rubbish. Except, when I was trying to do all the things, and telling myself I should be able to do all the things, I actually spent an awful lot of time stressed and running around and feeling behind and chaotic and all of those things. I had a lot of good times too, don't get me wrong, but there was a lot of judgment going on too. And what we often talk about in sessions now is how actually your life is a bit more like a plate, it's a bit more like a meal, and you can choose Things, you know, I need this sort of stuff in my work life and I need that, you know, extra carbohydrate or whatever. I need this sort of stuff in my fun life, that's your protein, da da da. And that actually what makes up a nicer meal is where you've selected a bunch of things that kind of add up to a nice plate of food, rather than trying to chuck in all your favorites at once. And then you end up with you know, gravy over ice cream or whatever.

Geri: 00:30:45

Mm. Yeah. That's a lovely, it's a great analogy. So, because one of the programs that you offer that I want to talk about is Be Your Own Best Boss. And this is sort of like be your own.

Vikki: 00:30:58

It's like as your boss, you choose what you're putting on your plate, essentially, whether that's your actual eating plate or whether it's the plate of what you're taking on at any one time. And when I'm talking about being your own best boss, I'm not talking about like my role as an entrepreneur, where I am now, my own boss, I'm talking about all of us having this role inside ourselves where we get to decide what things we do and when we do them and what we're prioritizing right now and how we're organizing our week and all of these things and how often the way that internal boss acts to us is way worse than we would ever take from a normal boss, right? You know, when I look back, my boss internally back then was telling me. Had to do all these things. Don't worry, it will be fun. If you can't fit them all in, it means you're a terrible person, so just try harder. Um,

Geri: 00:31:58

This is your, this is your boss in your head.

Vikki: 00:32:00

That's my internal boss. Yes, not your real boss. That's to myself. I was giving myself very vague instructions as to what success looked like. Um, I was jamming in way too many things. Then judging myself for not being able to follow my to do list, which frankly made no sense in the first place because it had a thousand things on it. You Um, and then would tell myself it meant a whole load of things about me. And often we focus on the like implementer side of us. How do I learn to follow my to do list, to follow my diary, to do the things I intend to do? And what we often don't do is sort of backtrack to, hang on a minute. What about the bit of me that's making the decisions, the boss version of me? Are they acting in my best interests? Are they planning things in a way that feels doable and fun? Are they saying to me the things I need to hear? Because it's not just about planning, right? It's also, you know, When I ask people what things would you want your boss to say to you, it's like I need to say that they believed in me and that they think that with support I could do this new harder thing, but that we'll do it a bit at a time, or that I don't have to do it all at once or these sorts of things. Now I'm not saying any of those things to myself. I do now, consciously. But yeah, that's what I mean by this kind of being a better boss to yourself, is choosing what's on your plate, choosing what you say to yourself, so that it's then much easier to follow through.

Geri: 00:33:30

That takes a lot of self awareness, doesn't it? That, your boss isn't always giving you the best advice. And I, I mean, I'm wondering, You said something that has not got your best interest and I often sort of think that it does have your best interest, it's just not very wise in how it implements it, or like the way it's going to happen and it falls down a bit in that side of things.

Vikki: 00:33:53

Yeah, absolutely. And often what it has is it sort of, I think of it when, when you're kind of internal bosses a little bit. I think what often happens is that when it's thinking about you in the future, it's either a bit hopeless. I never really had that. But I see some clients where it's like, Oh, I probably will never be able to blah, blah, blah, blah. I never really have. Mine was just a bit over ambitious. It was a bit like, Oh, we could definitely do this and this and this. But then when it was managing me in the moment, it was very, um, indulgent. It was very sort of, Oh, you know, you're probably quite tired. You probably could leave the dishwasher till later or whatever. Um, and yeah, you're right. The notion of thinking about what I was saying to myself with a brain that works at my ADHD speed just seemed completely, I didn't understand. Yeah. I've got a very good friend who's a psychology professor in my department and she used to talk to me about some of this stuff. I was like, I don't understand. You mean there's a stage before words coming out of your mouth that involves thinking about them? Is that real? Are you lying to me? I don't understand. Um, But there was something, I think, about the group coaching, where I was seeing other people's thoughts, that it was like, Oh, you, you're just, you're, the way you're sort of bossing yourself, you're making it really hard to follow through. This is, this is not always an implementation problem. This is a, you're saying really mean things to yourself. and making this a really hard schedule to follow. And I just see that in so many academics. People telling themselves they should be able to write for eight hours a day, and they should be able to produce a draft that doesn't sound terrible on the first attempt, and all of these things. And whilst also telling themselves they're not good enough. So, like, this weird Perfectionism and imposter syndrome that coexist somehow. Yes. That I have to be better than everybody else and produce this in a way that I wouldn't expect from anybody else. And at the same time, I'm a piece of shit who doesn't deserve to be here.

Geri: 00:36:15

And I can't do it because I'm a piece of shit who doesn't deserve to be here. But I have to prove it even more.

Vikki: 00:36:21

Exactly. Um. And so

Geri: 00:36:25

Not logical for people who are working in the academic scientific space is supposed to be able to think logically.

Vikki: 00:36:31

But we're all humans in that. I think, I think sometimes, especially, you know, everyone I work with has come through school as one of the like brighter ones and all of that. Mm hmm. And they're used to being high achievers, and they somehow think that that means they get out of having emotions and they get out of not being perfect and it's like, it doesn't work like that. And so yeah, you're absolutely right. It takes a lot of practice and support, to be honest, to be able to separate out, um, sort of hearing what you say to yourself and deciding to what extent you want to reinforce that, or to what extent you want to go, yeah, yeah, I know, I know you think that, but it's okay, we can do it anyway.

Geri: 00:37:14

Which is a boss who actually has the ability to stand back and go, let me think about that for a minute.

Vikki: 00:37:21

Yeah, which hundred percent

Geri: 00:37:23

And make a choice about how to respond. And I'm also hearing the way that you described your own drive as being coming very much from you and self driven and you also pointed to other people that you've worked with where the drive is more because their supervisor says so that should Has come from external things and not measuring up. And then there are the other people that you talked about, who maybe have more of a self confidence issue and just don't feel like they're able to. And in some ways, like the behaviors can play out the same. But where they're coming from is so different and I imagine that how you would approach dealing with them or working with someone as they work through that would be very different. Do you want to say any more about that?

Vikki: 00:38:13

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think this is a true As a coach, but it's also true as a supervisor. So I do supervisor training as well. And often supervisors are very focused on the behaviors, right? And the outcomes. They're very focused on, is my student turning up with the right data or the right writing at the times they said they would? And if they're not, There's a problem. And obviously people are getting much better now at recognizing well being problems and all that sort of stuff. And so asking, are you okay? But what we often don't get to is what is it that's making it hard to reach these deadlines? And often supervisors respond by being more strict. They can respond by being more controlling and more like, well, you know, show me as you go along. Let's have more deadlines. Let's have, you know, we'll do it more supervised way. Um. When actually what's often happening is that these students have got a lot of thoughts going on about whether they're, whether they, you know, who are they to make a decision as to whether to analyze it this way or that way or, you know, who are they to make an argument or those sorts of things or they're getting ahead of themselves into what's my supervisor going to think about this. And so often, as you say, lots of different reasons can come into play. Culminate in that same behavior of not submitting something on time. And if as coaches, but if as supervisors, we can't pick that apart or at least recognize that there might be more than one reason, then that kind of one size fits all solution is, is just not gonna, it's just not going to get there.

Geri: 00:39:57

I think that's one of the most critical skills for supervisors to learn, isn't it? To stay open and curious about what's going on. what's happening for this person. Um, I was just in a mentor the mentor workshop last week, and one of the people there was talking more about their supervisions, um, that they have. And the story that they told, they had their own sort of self awareness as we were going along about, they were wanting the other person to be a mini me. And not, thinking about who were they, what was mini them and what did they want and how could they support them and realize that a lot of the measures that they'd implemented were what they would have wanted or what they assumed was the issue because that would have been the issue for them.

Vikki: 00:40:44

Yeah, 100%. So often I see supervisors saying, Well, if I'm taking a deadline seriously, I always hit the deadline. And so that means they must not be taking this deadline seriously. When in reality, often the problem is that they're taking the deadline way too seriously, holding themselves to a ridiculous standard. And they're too scared to even start start writing because they haven't read enough and they don't know enough yet. Yeah. You know, I definitely can't write anything until I've read all of this. Um, so yeah, absolutely. That kind of, just assuming that people are like you and respond to situations in the same way Can, yeah. Can cause lots of problems.

Geri: 00:41:24

So if you are doing a supervisor workshop, how do you work with them to develop different skills to do that? What sort of core skills?

Vikki: 00:41:33

Well, the first thing is actually almost exactly the same as I do with students, which is that self understanding, because

Geri: 00:41:39

Yes, it's core to everything, isn't it?

Vikki: 00:41:42

Yeah, it completely is, because so often, you know, you can go to a supervisor training where they say, what you need to do is you need to stay in regular contact, provide feedback on time regularly to a high quality, and adapt your behavior to whoever you've got in front of you. And if as a supervisor, you're going, well, that's great, Very lovely, but I'm teaching three modules this semester, I've got 10 PhD students, 30 undergraduate project students, and I haven't seen my kids in a month, um, then they're not going to show up like that, um, from a workload perspective, but also from a, if in their heads, they've got this, well, I need to get this student through because otherwise I'm not going to get promoted or I'll never get that grant if we don't get this pilot data collected. I want to be really nice to this student, but I'm worried I shouldn't have picked them in the first place, and da da da, all this stuff. If we can't regulate that for ourselves, Yes. we start trying to control the behaviour of others in order to make ourselves feel better. And so that's where a stressing supervisor will often start being too controlling over a student as a way of managing their own anxiety about the student's progress. And so that's where I start with it all. We go into some quite cool stuff about how you can use writing to build a supervisory relationship and all these sorts of things, and some more specific kind of task management tools that you can use. But really the core of it is is understanding how your own experience of supervision and your own experience of being an academic influences how you engage with all of your students and how your first responsibility is regulating that bit. And it's the same in any relationship, right? This is true of parenting. It's true of, you know, partner relationships, friendships, all of this stuff. If we rely on other people to regulate our whole emotions make us feel better, or to get us to do particular actions. Then everyone just starts being a bit weird with each other. We can take responsibility. You know, my thoughts, feelings, actions, outcomes are mine. Yours are yours. But my job is to create an environment in which you're most likely to flourish. Um, if we can start from there, then everything gets a little bit more straightforward.

Geri: 00:44:04

Did you develop those skills over time as a supervisor or have the insights developed more deeply as you've moved into more of this coaching role and working?

Vikki: 00:44:13

I'm definitely, yeah, I'm, I'd even go so, so far to say that I'm mildly self conscious of ex students listening to my podcast. So I have a podcast, The PhD Life Coach, and I was, I was a good supervisor, I think, in the sense that I was keen and helpful and enthusiastic and engaged, all of those things, definitely. However, I was also definitely someone who would lose track that something was happening and then panic at the last minute about whether it was or not. So I would sort of not follow up with them for a while then stress out about whether it had been done or not, things like that, definitely. Um, depending, I, I supervise across a slightly silly range of disciplines, just because I have a lot of interests and an interdisciplinary approach. And. Yeah, there were definitely times where, where I just didn't show up as my best self, where there were too many other things. I don't, you know, nothing ever went wrong. They all, you know, they were all wonderful. They will still talk to me. Um, but I definitely don't hold myself up as being, you know, I got it right the whole time. Um, I sometimes wonder what it would be like now to supervise PhD students with it, how easy I would find it to practice what I preach, as it were. Um, but yeah, I think even just having that compassion on both sides that not everyone shows up the way they intend to all the time. Yeah. It just.

Geri: 00:45:55

And we're all on a learning journey.

Vikki: 00:45:57

Yeah.

Geri: 00:45:57

We're all on a learning journey and that giving ourselves the grace to be on a learning journey. And we learn most from when we don't get it always right. I don't, I can tell. I think a lot of the stuff I do is driven by the stories of what I did that I now think, Oh my goodness, you know, and I think one of the things that I'm starting to believe more and more and more is important as we have an explicit discussion in any of these sorts of relationships that we're going to, you know, like the expectation that we are going to get it wrong. And what do we do? How are we going to handle this together? And your freedom to speak up and my freedom to say, oops, sorry. And how can we repair this? And because I think in the past, I may have also. Tried to sort of, in the guilt thing of, I oughtn't to have done that, uh, almost pretend it didn't happen or justify it in different ways that are really not, accountable when I look back.

Vikki: 00:46:57

Yeah, no, definitely. And people, I think that's one of the things that's interesting with coaching, right? Because I think people think that if they do sufficient coaching and they do all this kind of mindset work and stuff, that they just won't make these mistakes in future. Yeah. And in my experience, that's not true. We're laughing. We, you know. Maybe make them a bit less, but for me, the bit that becomes so powerful is also how you respond after that. So, for me, if you can do the kind of good self compassion piece, which is something we work on a lot, then, um, after you've snapped at somebody or given more critical feedback than you intended or whatever, not turned up for something you were meant to or whatever, if you're not making that mean that you're an awful person or you're not making it mean that it's their fault because they should have given it to you sooner, then it can be more of a like, Oh crap. I was meant to do that. Wasn't I? The one for me was always, um, I always forgot things like my MOT and my, for my car and my mum would always remind me, she'd always say, Oh, your MOT is due in about July. Is that just a UK thing? It's a car check. It's a legal thing. Your insurance is invalid without it. So you have to go and have your car checked over once a year. And I'd always forget when it was. And my mum was like, I think your MOT's due in July. And I used to get so mad. In my head, that meant that she thought I was useless. She thought that I wasn't on top of it. I'd be like, alright, it's fine, I know, it's in my diary. And then afterwards I'd be like, shit, it's not in my diary. Wait, I don't know how to do it. But I'd be so defensive with her. Um, whereas, Once we can do this kind of self compassion piece where it's like, you know, I forget stuff sometimes. I do. It's how it goes. Um, it's not that we don't try and it's not that we don't put systems in place to avoid it. But if we can just, exactly, it doesn't mean a lot about us. It just means we forgot that thing. Then suddenly I can respond to my mum with that. Oh, you're right. Yeah, good shout. I'll give them a call. And similarly with students and whatever, it can be like, Um, I was meant to give you feedback for today, wasn't it? I'm so sorry. I haven't done it. Let me look at my diary. We'll figure out a time now that we can do it. Whereas, if it's this big deal, we often avoid it, or we get defensive, or, you know, we just generally exacerbate what was only a small thing. And I think that that was something I was probably okay at. I've never been a grudge bearing sort of a person. So I think the kind of, certainly with their mistakes, I was pretty good at kind of getting over that quite quickly. Maybe not quite so good when it was my mistakes.

Geri: 00:49:37

Because you're a harsher boss on yourself than on other people. So it sounds like self compassion is one of the key tools that a best boss brings. What are some of the other aspects of being your own best boss that you think are really key?

Vikki: 00:49:53

So I actually, so I have a online course called how to be your own best boss. And It's kind of different sections in it, but the final section has 10 qualities that I think a good boss needs. We always start with compassion because everything else just doesn't work if we can't start to develop that in ourselves. Um, curiosity is, I won't do all 10, but curiosity is a huge one. That sort of, I wonder why. I'm doing that. Or I wonder why they might be doing that and sort of being open and non judgmental and just sort of wondering what options there are. Cause we often have quite fixed reasoning around why someone would do something or what they should do.

Geri: 00:50:34

Even the emotions that you talked about before, you know, being aware that curiosity about your own emotions or reactions, I wonder why, where's that coming from?

Vikki: 00:50:46

Why did that hurt so much? Why did I get so defensive when he said that? What was it that bothered me? So in that meeting example where I, where I exploded, the reason, you know, when I looked at that with curiosity afterwards, it was because I thought that too. I thought I should have consulted with people too and I hadn't had time and I hadn't been able to do that and I hadn't prioritized doing that. But that was why if he was asking me something that was stupid, I don't think I'd have got so upset. It was because I thought that too, that I got so upset.

Geri: 00:51:18

And so you're disappointed in yourself in a way.

Vikki: 00:51:22

But it was only through that kind of curiosity of, I get so upset about that, that that became really important.

Geri: 00:51:29

Um. Self compassion, curiosity.

Vikki: 00:51:33

Yeah. I was just thinking through which other ones. So I think, so I have ambitious and realistic, and I think those are really interesting to hold together. And that is, the ambitious is around believing. How much you can do and how many things you've got ahead of you without having to be this perfect being. How far you can go with, without changing fundamental things about yourself. Um, so it's sort of being ambitious and believing that you can get there, um, but not in a kind of, What's the word? Like a dream world kind of way. If I can just find the perfect system, find the perfect whatever, then I can just, I know, actually, I can get to these things I can do more than I think I'm capable of. Um, so that's the kind of ambitious side, but then the realistic side is around sort of recognizing that you are always going to be you. You are always going to have. Some of the qualities you have now, there are going to be things that you're going to have to actively manage for the rest of your life. And often we need to be realistic more in the kind of day to day expectations of what can be done in a short amount of time. So it's sort of ambitious in the longer term, realistic in the day to day, so that you can you can kind of keep things moving and keep kind of understanding, you know, that whole kind of B minus work is good enough thing being realistic and what quality something needs to be in order to be meaningful and important.

Geri: 00:53:16

I was going to just say something very similar that is one of the key skills in that realistic piece, isn't it? Is, I don't know, being realistic about you can't do the same high standard, especially if you're someone who has high standards and push yourself, that you don't have to do it for everything and what is really important and worth it.

Vikki: 00:53:40

Yeah, 100%. And it goes back to this notion of, you know, we're talking about the plate and the meal at the beginning, um, is, You can have a high standard life. You can have a high standard plate. It doesn't mean that every single element of your life needs to be done to a perfect standard. You can have a high standard thesis, or research article, or whatever, which has got a few clunky sentences in it. It doesn't stop it being a high standard piece of work. And I think sometimes we get fixated on how every little bit has to be high standard, rather than looking at what makes a high standard whole. And I see this a lot, I have a lot of clients who are part time PhD students, so they have other jobs alongside their PhD, or I have clients who are academics and also parents and things like this, and so they're sort of juggling different roles in their life. And a lot of the time they talk about that they're not performing highly in any one zone of their life, you know, they're not, they're not a good enough academic because they're a parent and they're putting time and care into that, and they're not a good enough parent because they're putting time and care into their academic life. One of the things we try and think about is if we look at it as a life, rather than as two other lives, like academia and parenting, for example, then we can say what is a high standard academic parent. What does the life of a high standard academic parent look like? And that can't be a hundred percent of what a parent who doesn't got an academic career and a hundred percent of what an academic without kids looks like. But what would it look like to have a high standard? academic parenting life. And suddenly you start seeing that actually how that is high standard is by having some bits where it matters and some bits where it doesn't. Some bits where it's like, you know what, if my kid is fed tonight, that is good enough. They will cope with a little bit of television and something out the freezer because they're entertained, they're alive, they're fed, happy days, that is good enough, I need to do this. Other times, It's, I'm not going to be at that meeting because it's their carol concert and I'm, I'm going that's, you know, and that's what you then you're not judging yourself for making, you know, entirely homemade meal over here, judging yourself for not going to that meeting as well. It's like, on the whole, this adds up to a high standard.

Geri: 00:56:17

I've almost got in my head a picture of, um, you've got two bosses warring in your head. You've got your academic boss and your parent boss, and both of them are trying to get your full attention.

Vikki: 00:56:27

And it needs to be just one boss.

Geri: 00:56:30

And you need to step into the middle and say, Yeah, you know, step aside.

Vikki: 00:56:35

Yeah, this isn't two separate things. We have, we have one like, I don't really like this notion of like work life balance. No. We have, we have a life, and we are the boss of that, and we get to decide. And it's not always going to look the same, right? That's one of the things that as our own bosses we get to choose. There's going to be times where it's like, you know what, during this period of time, This stuff's going to rise to the surface and I'm going to rely on more family support or whoever we've got. I know not everyone has that luck, that luxury, but you know, we're going to rely on other support to help with family things, or I'm just going to have lower expectations of myself and they'll be fine. And then other times, you know, work goes a little bit more on the back burner and family stuff has to be higher priority. We can change these things week to week, day to day, or like phases. It is. Um, but it takes that little sort of slight step back to be like, okay, what could good look like here? And how can I, how can I make up something here that sort of muddles out on the whole be a good life? Because chasing perfect and all of it feels crap

Geri: 00:57:43

And good is good is good, isn't it? Sometimes people interpret good as compromise or. Not good enough, but it's good. Yeah, it is good.

Vikki: 00:57:54

A hundred percent. Because thing is, we're also often, we're choosing really silly markers of what is excellent. So like, I know people get themselves, you know, they get very caught up on, you know, I need to. Homemade food, let's say that. Whether it's for yourself, for your partner, for your kids, whoever. Homemade food. I need to be eating nutritiously and cooking most of it myself and da da da. They'll get all caught up on that, um, and then struggle to balance that with their academic life. And if the attempt to do that is making you grumpy and obnoxious. The overall picture is not better here. It's like, we're attempting to eat homemade food and succeed at university and the price of that is I'm snapping at everybody and judging myself. I'd far rather you were only cooking homemade food twice a week and eating something out of a jar the rest of the time and being nice to yourself and the people around you because that's going to add up to a much nicer, healthier life than any kind of perfectionist idea of like standards. And the same is true with work, right? I'd far rather that your lectures were sorted and ready to go for the term, than one of them was beautiful and carefully researched and put together and the others don't exist.

Geri: 00:59:14

So there's, there's still the job of getting stuff done. And, and the warring bosses in your head and trying to create the boss that you want and getting it to stand up to the others with compassion and curiosity and care, and self awareness as well. So, building on that, if we have those as foundations and we're practicing some of those things, how do we then practically still manage to get stuff done?

Vikki: 00:59:44

Yeah, it's such a good question because often I find that coaches fall on one side of this or the other. They're either all mindset and it's just, if you can get your thoughts straight, then we'll be good. Or they're very tips and tricks and technique focus. Well, I try and balance the two and in the Be Your Own Best Boss course, there's, there's elements of both. One of the tools that I really, really like, and I've sort of developed over the last couple of years is called role based time blocking. So people will have heard time blocking before where you kind of plan what blocks of time you're going to use, usually for specific tasks, right? I'll write this in that block and I'll do this in that block. The idea behind role based time blocking is that we all have a variety of roles in our lives. Now there might be some roles. In your personal life, you're a parent or you're a partner or whatever, but even within your academic life, you have multiple roles. You're a, you know, you lead a particular module whatever. You have an admin role. You have a certain research project or whatever. And even for PhD students, the earlier stage of this stuff, they'll have a role of writer. They'll have a role of data collector or data analyzer or whatever. And the idea behind this technique is that we get clear on what the different roles are, and then, for like this period of our life, what proportional amount of time do I want to spend in these different roles? And so what we get to do is instead of putting specific tasks on our calendars, we get to put roles in our calendars. So we get to say, between this time and this time on a Monday, I am module organiser me. So I'm in teaching mode. That's, that's where I do that stuff. In this block, I'm in data collection mode. In that block, I'm in writing mode, for example. And what this does is it separates out. these different tasks so that you don't feel quite so much like you're having to be all things to all people. In that block of time you are solely a writer or in that block of time you're solely a teacher. And it also helps if one of the things that people always criticize time blocking for is not knowing how long things take and not deciding how long things take. Yes. And what this get you get to do in this is that it's a I haven't decided exactly which of the tasks I'm going to do, but it's going to be tasks that are to do with the module I'm teaching this year, for example. And so I then have a role based task management system as well, where my tasks are divided out by roles. So if I'm in a block where I'm thinking about being a Podcast host, for example. Um, I have my to dos that are to do with the production of my podcast. And when my brain is going, as it inevitably does, Oh yeah, yeah, but you, you need to contact that client about whatever. It's like, yeah, I'll do that in my operations section. That's on the list. I'll do it when I'm on operations. Right now I'm podcast host and that's all I am. Um, so we're just doing podcast jobs. And having that sort of, it's like a sort of in between time blocking where we're not just having a complete free for all do whatever, but we're not plotting this exact task in this exact minute and then getting out of control. Just hugely, hugely helps. So to say you're kind of makes it really clear, makes it much more limited what things you've got to do. In that block. Um, and enables you to look at your week and go, am I spending this how I want to spend it? Within the constraints I've got. Yes. Am I spending this proportionally where I want to be spending it?

Geri: 01:03:24

Yeah. And where your energy is as well, like.

Vikki: 01:03:27

100 percent because, and that's really important because often people say, yeah, but what if I come round to the writing section and I don't feel like writing, I'm just not there for writing. Well, what we often do in that is we go off and do some little admin task and then wonder why we never get any writing done, right? Whereas with role based time blocking, what the argument would be is that you're in writer mode. If you're not feeling like writing, okay. Then we write slowly. We write just a little bit. We write with low expectations of quality. We write something that's, you know, at a very early stage, so it's a really rough draft. We still write. We just change the way we show up for it, and we change the exact nature of it. But we don't decide to go off and just do something different because it feels easier. Yeah. And that can be a really good way of keeping those important but not urgent tasks ticking over and making it not feel like you've got a thousand things to do because in that block, you're just that job.

Geri: 01:04:36

I like the way you brought your, you illustrated again, bringing in your own best boss, because it said to you, I know you've got this other work to do. We'll get to it. There's a space in the calendar. You know, you can calm down. Yeah, we've thought of that self reassurance. It's now time to do this other thing. I also like the way that it removes one of the reasons that one of the many reasons that we can beat ourselves up about that. You know, I, I'm terrible at estimating the time something takes, which is what everyone says. Everybody. Yeah. And the research backs that up that we are bad at estimating our task. And I really like that it takes the pressure off that as an excuse. Like, yeah, you may not have, uh, You may have thought it would take less time or more time, but the point is you're in that role. What you also indicated is that you, the value of doing that pre planning, the scenario planning, the what if planning that some of the people talk about of, if I have a writing block in the calendar and I don't feel like writing, then I will do slow writing. Then I will Do something. Like having pre thought what might be some alternative strategy so that you're still standing in that role and you're being realistic again like you're realistic. Yeah.

Vikki: 01:06:04

100 percent 100 percent and you know this. The reason I do mindset with these tools is you need both, right? Because these tools only work if you combine them with some self compassion, some self understanding, some flexibility and all of these things. Because otherwise what happens is, you know, you listen, I have a podcast episode about role based time blocking, you listen to that, you try it, you don't stick to it perfectly, you beat yourself up, declare it another failed system, and then don't do anything for another couple of weeks. Um, so the tools on their own don't work, but if you have these sorts of tools and then you combine it with being open to the fact that you're gonna explore and be curious and see which time box do I stick to regularly? Which roles do I find it easier to fall into more, more readily? Which roles do I find myself wanting to go to? Which roles am I like cross that I don't have more time for? Um, you go into it kind of curiously and compassionately and understanding that there's going to be times where you've got to kind of just sort of reassure that little inner child that don't want to do the difficult thing and just go, it's okay, but we are going to, because that's the role. You kind of combine up those sorts of cognitive emotional tools in order to make it. more effective. And I always feel the need, I have to add this caveat. I've been doing role based time blocking for probably three years now, I would say. I can think of maybe one week where I have stuck to every block that I said I was going to do with the exact role I said I was going to do. Any sort of planning system is not about, no boss expect, no good boss expects you to 100 percent stick to exactly what you do at all times with no flexibility. There is an enormous amount of benefit to planning, scheduling, trying to implement the best you can and then reviewing afterwards that is hugely valuable. Yes. Even if you haven't stuck to it. And I think that's one of the most important things for people to recognize.

Geri: 01:08:22

Yeah. Because it is that ongoing learning. Yeah. A hundred percent. And you said about recognizing what blocks come easier to you or that you look more forward to. And that connects back to what you said at the very beginning when you started to realize that this isn't what you wanted to do in the research because the energy wasn't there. And then what a great. tool for self awareness, because if you know that there are some roles that you particularly like, how can you shape your time at work to do more of that, or to reserve your high energy, high quality time for that work that you love doing?

Vikki: 01:09:01

100%. So that you're building on your strengths and trying to create a career and a life that uses those strengths for As much as time possible. I think that's, that's all any of us can ask.

Geri: 01:09:13

Which is, I think the, the theme that's come through the whole thing is you, you have to be you and it takes work to understand who you are and not who someone else is or not who your unrealistic boss expects you to be. But yeah, how do you do you? And that means that you're a great boss to be cultivated to do that.

Vikki: 01:09:40

Absolutely. Yeah.

Geri: 01:09:42

So I will, I will link to that, uh, role blocking podcast episode, because I think that will be really interesting for people. Perfect. So any, anything to say in wrapping up and also, where can people find out more about what you offer now? Because we can hear the energy and the passion for what you do.

Vikki: 01:10:03

Yeah. Perfect. Absolutely. The first place to start would be the PhD Life Coach podcast. Um, I've got ones, I've got episodes about role based time blocking, about how to be your own best boss, all sorts of things. So definitely start there. I have a free newsletter, which gives some summaries of the podcast and gives you some reflective activities to do so that you actually start to implement some of the things that I talk about. And if from there, people want more support, I do one to one coaching for PhD students and academics. And I have a membership program for PhD students where they get access to the sort of group coaching that I talked about today.

Geri: 01:10:39

Sounds wonderful. Thank you so much for your time, for your generosity and sharing all this with us.

Vikki: 01:10:45

No problem. Thank you for having me.

Geri: 01:10:48

Thank you. Well, it wasn't that amazing. So I'm curious. What do you take away from this? There's so much there about navigating career transitions. About knowing yourself better. About offering some different mindset and practical toolkit approaches for managing our life and being our own best boss. I point you again to Vikki's website, which is www.thePhDlifecoach.com. And reminder that you can sign up there to her Membership. And the wait list for that is opening up at the end of January, 2025. You can find the summary notes, a transcript, and related links for this podcast on www. changingacademiclife. com. You can also subscribe to Changing Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify, and Google Podcasts. And I'm really hoping that we can widen the conversation about how we can do academia differently. And you can contribute to this by rating the podcast and also giving feedback. And if something connected with you, please consider sharing this podcast with your colleagues together. We can make change happen.